Lisbon Treaty – Vote No.
May 29th, 2008 by Frank
Unless I am seriously convinced by someone otherwise, I am voting NO to the Lisbon treaty. I have been leaning this way, but I was so suspicious of a lot of the No campaign that I was almost being pushed over to the Yes side.
I’ll be honest, I don’t understand much of all this Lisbon treaty fuss. But what I do know makes me nervous. It may be that I am ill educated on it, but as I said in one of my comments on Daves Vote Yes post, I am not alone – an RTE poll at the end of April showed only 5% of people understood what it was about.
The Lisbon Treaty is obviously significant and important, so it should be reflected in the efforts to educate the public on what they are about to vote on.
Everybody I have spoken to feels that the No campaigners are sensationalist, but the Yes campaigners have not given a compelling reason to vote yes, other than ‘Trust us, we’re politicians, this is good for you’.
To illustrate the kind of thing I’m talking about, Minister for European Affairs Dick Roche was quoted in the irish Times as saying:
“There is no way the Government would have negotiated anything that was detrimental to our interests,”
Oh that’s fine then, let’s all vote Yes.
He goes on to say:
“Ireland’s interests are undoubtedly best served by continued engagement in Europe. There’s no future for us as a standalone nation cut adrift from Europe.”
Is he inferring that a No vote will result in our being cut adrift from Europe? What nonsense. Worse, it’s dangerous scaremongering nonsense.
I’m so sick of being told that we owe it to Europe, let’s not be left behind by Europe, let’s ‘be at the heart of it.’
We ARE at the heart of it. We ARE PART of the EU, stop making it sound like a No vote is a vote to LEAVE. It’s not.
Roche also said:
there was “no benefit” in frustrating the European Union when it is “more or less unanimous” on the treaty.
I find that unanimity hard to believe as far as the public in the EU goes, given that the EU Constitution was abandoned due to the no votes of the French and Dutch people. A bit of shifting of language and bit of manoevering to avoid referendums in most countries and here we are again.
No thank you.
A Yes vote is a vote of confidence that we trust the powers that be that the entire contents of the Lisbon Treaty (and the bits of it that they will make up later) are hunky dorey – it’s a vote of confidence because they have not taken the time to educate the public over a reasonable length of time for something this serious, in my opinion.
That Vote of confidence is hard to give when our Taoiseach had not read the Lisbon Treaty fully despite the fact that getting it passed was his No.1 priority.
I freely admit I am not the most politically up to speed, but this is how I feel. I am open to correction and education in the comments!
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May 29th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
This is the only post I will make as I really don’t have the time to read the bed time story version of the treaty to everyone… I have spent quiet a bit of time canvassing for it and even though I have not been posting I have been keeping an eye on what has been written here on Bifsniff.
To be honest I just don’t know what you are looking for- and I don’t mean just you Frank, it is the majority of people out there!- there are a huge amount of websites, the independent commission has put out a leaflet, information is available in libraries and from government agencies, there are booklets, leaflets and hundreds of newspaper column inches… not to mention radio and TV giving it hours of coverage!!!
What the f**K do people want? It’s a complicated legal document there is only so much dumbing down that can be done…. other countries aint getting the chance to vote but we are so whats yer point? Can no one see the irony of that little gem?
Seriously… tell me what you want? The full text of the treaty can be found on several websites, the amendment to the constitution can also be found within seconds of doing a google search… What, what is it?
What more do people want?
There is the treaty, the government and major political parties have stated their cases, the No side have plenty of info out there… Read it and make up your own bloody mind!!!!
There is a chance that if we don’t ratify that the rest of the EU would decide to proceed without us… that would be interesting for us. That is a fact. It is unlikely that they will renegotiate the treaty in any case… what would they do that for? There is no definitive point from the no side on which to renegotiate!!!!
Your vote is not just a right it comes with responsibility… you need to read the info that is out there and make up your mind based on that information and considered though for how you would like to see the country proceeds with regard to the EU.
Incidentally I’m glad that the Taoiseach didn’t waste his time reading the full text of the document… delegation and trust in your advisors are critical for any leader. His time is better spent on more pressing matters (although he’s not doing a very good job of it!
)
May 29th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
What does that tell you? Politicians are working for the people, the politicians have done a really poor job of bringing the public with them on this one. Don’t attack us poor joes over our Governments failings!
And you’re defending this position?
The EU Constitution was abandoned because the French and Dutch voted no, now here it is again (more or less), but only we get to vote this time. That in itself stinks to high heaven. And now you’re telling me that it’s not really a choice anyway, it’s vote yes or we’ll carry on regardless without you?
Is this the real reason FG are in agreement with FF on the Yes campaign? That it would be publicly unpopular but the truth is we have vote Yes or pack our bags? But ssshhh don’t tell the people they don’t like being told what to do… Is this the real reason for the emotional blackmail approach of the Yes campaign?
Er… I have made up my mind based on what I’ve read, that’s why I posted this.
I have watched TV programs and read articles and leaflets, and the whole thing seems to be a farce. Nobody seems to be able to agree on what it actually means for us.
That’s my impression. Anyone with me or am I on my own?
If there was a longer term strategy & debate to educate the people on the wide range of issues affected by this treaty then I might have been swayed… who knows.
But as things stand, having read up on it, I am voting NO and encouraging others to do so until I discover a compelling argument for voting Yes.
I think your attitude to this issue, while more plainly stated, reflects accurately the Governments approach – neither in your post or your comments have you in any way shown why you personally believe that the Lisbon Treaty is a good thing (bar some ill explained bullet points) and yet you’re highly frustrated that any of us would feel we don’t know enough about the true effects of this treaty to vote Yes.
I hope you won’t take any of this personally Dave, but I am somewhat surprised at your view on this, especially given the interesting arguments/conversations we’ve had in the past.
On this one, I don’t hear Dave, I hear Fine Gael.
Maybe we should chat about this over coffee!
May 29th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
@Dave – “other countries aint getting the chance to vote but we are so whats yer point?”
Heh. Funny, because *that* would be my point exactly.
Europe hasn’t voted for this treaty, it’s getting forced upon them. Only Ireland gets the chance to stand up and say that that’s not good enough.
I’m not voting NO for sake of Ireland. I’m voting NO out of respect for the democracy of those other 26 nations.
@Dave – “Can no one see the irony of that little gem?”
Can you?
May 30th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
That poster has made my mind up !….i know it shouldn’t but it has….it defines a lot i love and despise about our country.
The truth is, this is going to happen one way or another, as Emmet said before , we said No already and here we are again.
Therefore initialy I was going to vote yes on the basis it would be cheaper for us in the long run. Then I felt bad and decided the most representative thing I could do was not vote. But…THATS IT that poster is the best thing to come out of the whole debacle !!
May 30th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
[...] Have you seen this: 02/10/2006: Happy Valentine’s Day Massacre… « Lisbon Treaty – Vote No. [...]
June 5th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
PLEASE VOTE YES TO LISBON TREATY,YOU HAVE ALL THE MAIN POLITICAL PARTIES (EXCEPT THE SHINNERS AND OF COURSE JOE HIGGINS GOT HIS ANSWER FROM THE PUBLIC LAST YEAR) THEY ALL CANT BE WRONG AND OF COURSE THEY ARE GIVING US THE CHOICE TO VOTE YES OR NO UNLIKE THE NO CAMPAIGNERS.WE HAVE SIX YES VOTES IN OUR HOUSEHOLD FOUR OF WHICH ARE FIRST AND SECOND TIME VOTERS.THE ONLY THING THAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IN THE YES CAMP IS THAT SILLY ADVERT SHOWING HALF A PERSON………………….
June 6th, 2008 at 1:44 am
I keep seeing busses with Yes to Lisbon on the side and the temptation to hop on board almost overwhelms me – especially when it’s raining. Lisbon is lovely.
the referendum – I’m definitely voting ‘maybe’ – i think
June 6th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
This whole Lisbon Treaty is a fricking bamboozle. There are a few good changes which the Yes people are focusing on and using them like a golden carrot on a stick, but the entire thing amounts to serious curtailment of our existing liberties and paves the way for European militarization. Why are we being asked to vote on changes that wont be fully decided until after the treaty comes into effect? Why would we want to throw out our commissioner? Whats the benefit of letting the European commission decide on which rights of our constitution we’re allowed to retain? Worst of all, why haven’t our politicians read this document? Because its designed to be confusing. Its designed to slip its nefarious policies past us while we focus on that golden carrot and struggle on with our daily toil.
Nice stated that once there were 27 member states there would start to be be less commissioners than states, and that the active commissioners would be selected by rotation. But it also said that it would be fair to all members. Now you could claim that Lisbon honors that in one way since it is an equitable rotation, but it is most definitely not a fair rotation. Five years without a vote? Five years without any possibility of being heard? Do you trust the completely anonymous working groups that set ALL of our laws, in secret meetings I might add, to represent your interests for five years? Remember that these working groups are practically controlled by big business at this point. They are interested in wealth creation for the business sectors that they represent, not in social reform or social justice.
The whole thing stinks of Machiavellian subterfuge and power mongering.
If you are shortsighted and selfish enough to be considernig a YES vote, I but urge you to watch this documentary, End of Nations – EU Takeover & the Lisbon Treaty
2 minute trailer:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2848809142920075643&ei=&hl=en
Full documentary:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4291770489472554607
This is not an Irish issue folks, it’s a human rights issue. Ya, I know I’ll be branded as sensationlist. But watch the movie. You’ll be branded as sensationist too after you’ve seen it and start screaming NO from the roof tops.
June 6th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
The Irish farmer willn win on the double: He has his veto in the bag from Brian Cowen, and now he’ll vote No “just to be sure” !
June 7th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
I’m voting no. I hate Sinn Fein, I hate pro-lifers, I hate Ganley like business men, but most of all- I hate the fact 450 million Europeans dont have a vote!
France turned most of this down in 2004, the Treaty is a worse deal for us. Our voting weight will suffer. As a small fish in a big pond, it is not a good deal for us.
I’m a FF voter. I’ll vote FF in the locals….but this Treaty is not worth a Yes.
VÓTÁIL NÍL
June 11th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
I’m sick of seeing the silly slogans flashed at me from every street-lamp, but has anyone else noticed how few ‘No’ posters remain up?!
Hmmm…
Y’know, we’re still hearing about how the ‘No Campaign’ is usin’ dirty tricks:
The only trickery going on here is a con-game by professional liars pulling a fast one; lying about the Constitution Redux merely being a “tidying-up exercise”, when in fact getting behind this has profound implications and they know it! Let this be a warning to us that concentrating more power in the hands of an unelected, unaccountable Politburo in Brussels (aka the European Commission) is an unwise move.
If they had to lie to us by saying the Treaty was something it’s not, presumably in order to maximise the chance of succeeding in getting it passed into law, this suggests to me that some body calculated that we would not accept it if we knew the facts and registered the true significance what is at stake. The ramifications of giving more power to a body that is out of sight and potentially even further out of reach are staggering…
Think about it: one Governmental and law-making body over 450 million people! Such a concentration of power is surely antithetical to democratic principles? The Lisbon Treaty enshrines EU law above national law. As things stand, the EU makes up to 80% of n ew laws in a massive undertaking to homogenise ever-expanding areas of our lives.
The neo-liberal underpinnings of the EU today are plain to see in its actions. Everyone who has received “the correct training” just knows that the market works best, all public services should be privatised for profit, and competition law should favour the Oligarchs of Industry as they devour all before them. We’ve seen how the beast “naturally developed” from Trade Partnership to European Community to European Union.
Voting Yes on Thursday will vault the whole project into yet another social order – an EU-SSR – as “tip-toe totalitarianism” takes a stride into dangerous territory.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:04 am
Its 11.55pm on the eve of election day and I still dont know which way i’ll vote. Ive been of voting age for 13 years and to be fare I dont always vote mainly because I dont trust the politicians as far as i can throw them.
But with this vote im seriously confused, Ive searched the net looking at both sides of this treaty. Ive even taken a stab at reading the treaty (you’d want to be a super genius to understand it), and as for that pathetic booklet the government sent out…come on get serious it was a load of crap FF.
Ive spoken to others and they just say vote no, vote no but then they cant tell me why other then they dont get it so their voting no. I personally dont think a vote should be made on that basis, but I have the time a The internet while others wouldnt so they will just vote no and be done with it.
Im going to keep reading and go with my gut tomorrow?????
June 12th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
I’d say vote no. As you say you’ve looked around and read the booklet they sent out and still don’t know. If the booklet can’t explain it and you’ve done some research that didn’t provide you with answers then the EU haven’t done enough to explain what they want. I think that’s enough of a reason to vote no.
You should always vote anyway!
June 12th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
[...] Lisbon Treaty – Vote No. [...]
June 13th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Hello I am French
The Irish have voted NO, in European countries throughout the world do not understand why you reject the Eupope?
Many countries and people consider very bad the Irish.
We have a bad opinion of the Irish now.
I watched the news in Ireland or everyone is happy, but nobody shows on TV that many Irish in Ireland are now isolated from Europe.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
hi rico, I don’t accept your analysis of the situation. We do not reject Europe we reject the Lisbon Treaty, which is in essence the constitution your country rejected not so long ago. Did you reject Europe? No, you rejected the proposed constitution.
We are not now isolated from Europe, and if we become so because of this referendum then the EU needs to seriously examine it’s understanding of democracy.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
I agree with Frank!
June 14th, 2008 at 12:02 am
I agree completley with Frank also… The Irish people were asked to consider the Lisbon Treaty and they went to the polls and decided it was not the way for the EU to proceed.
This is the democratic right of our citizen and they have spoken. I am confident that if we had a vote tomorrow on our membership of the EU we would vote to stay in the EU.
The last time European governments went off doing their own thing we had millions of dead Rico… Would you like to go down that road again?
To be brutally honest Rico if an Irish person tried to tell the French how to run their country or how to vote… or told the French how their vote would be seen in another country then that Irish peron would be told exactly where to go! Your country was at the forefront of the development of modern democracy… why do you mock it now?
June 14th, 2008 at 1:18 am
“France’s Foreign Minister has warned that Ireland will be “the first victim” if voters reject the Lisbon Treaty in this Thursday’s referendum.
In an interview today, Bernard Kouchner says Ireland had benefited more than others from the EU and Europe should be able to count on the Irish for support.
Independant
Valery Giscard d’Estaing in regard to the wording of the Lisbon Treaty
“Public opinion will be led — without knowing it — to adopt the policies we would never dare present to them directly. All the earlier proposals will be in the new text but will be hidden or disguised in some ways.”
I’m sure many are not well briefed on the treaty. That is understandable because the document it is not complete. It is an open document designed to be a catchall. You are not asked to vote on a particular policy you were asked to vote to allow a more remote power to set whatever policy they deem necessary now and in the future. You were asked to vote for less representation of Irish interests and less democratic government. You were asked to vote yes to a treaty that would have the power to override your constitutional rights.
Ireland, not the most politically astute in Europe by any stretch but she knows the smell of a rat. This no vote will not make a blind bit of difference as you will see. However, it is important that history records it nevertheless. As the strains in global markets emerge I do believe we are all going to see the cold iron fist that really sits hidden at the heart of Europe.
June 14th, 2008 at 9:54 am
The referendum on Lisbon Treaty was a democratic exercise undertaken and rejected by Ireland.
We are still part of the EU, our representatives are politically active within it’s administrative structures.
If the EU is unable to accommodate & accept democracy at this time, then there is little point in it’s on going existence. The rule has always been that the acceptance of changes had to be a 100% agreement by all members.
Ireland may now legitimately ask when this golden rule was changed?
June 14th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Thank You Frank for this opportunity to add my view to the others on this Lisbon Treaty … I too Voted No to the proposed ratification of the Treaty… for Many reasons and that is my Democratic Right Like it should have been the Democratic right of all the Eu Countries or should I refer to them as States? I feel… I am also Not going to be Railroaded Into this Lisbon Treaty Because the French , President Mr. Sarkozy says we must still ratify it.. Lets get around the table and Have Transparent and open talks , for that matter Lets have Transparency about the treaty it self. Its all very Hidden agenda to me.. I am sorry I may not have the great education of many but it all smell a little Fishy to me(excuse the pun) Dave I read what you said and frankly It was much ado about nothing… in my humble estimation sorry.
June 14th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Thank God the Irish saw through this white washing of gaining control over our tight and protective Constitution. Would anyone here sign a legal binding document with gaps open to change without your authorisation in the future. I don’t think so. Would anyone here sign a document that would give EU courts more power than their own country’s Supreme court, I don’t think so. I agreed with a lot that was good in the Lisbon Treaty, bring those points back on their own merit and I will happily say yes but leave our hard fought for constitution alone, leave our courts alone.
According to EU law at the minute, this treaty has to be ratified by every one of the 27 countries, we didn’t and yet now our Taoiseach and the EU president are stating it’s not dead, so according to EU, if u don’t do what we say we’ll either ask again or cut u out ,if this is the type of law making and upholding they want us to sign up for I’m out …..
June 14th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
thanks for voting no to the Lisbon treaty from Padania (north italy)!!
June 14th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Thanks everyone for commenting – it’s really interesting to hear from quite a few people who had genuine and well informed concerns which lef them to vote no – especially since our government seem to think it’s because we were worried about ‘conscription, abortion and gay marriage’.
They proved they were out of touch with the people with their campaign and they continue to prove it in the aftermath of the vote.
Interesting times ahead. I hope the EU don’t confirm the fears and doubts this treaty has raised and that we can return to coming up with a better treaty/constitution in a democratic fashion.
June 14th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Mairead,
just so i dont misread what your trying to say… what part of what i wrote was much ado about nothing?
June 14th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Lets be totally honest about the NO vote. It was a mix of disenchanted groups from farmers, fishermen, anti government, frustrated middle class, republican militarists and right wing vested interests. As an Irishman who struggled with making our decision I finally came to the decision by reading fairly straigtforward documentation from our referendum commission. The information was available but I am afraid we have become a lazy electorate. We preferred to listen to the claims and internalise them into our own problems. We deserve to face the consequences of our actions. We pride ourselves on being educated but I believe we showed our ignorance. Confusion won the day because we allowed ourselves to be directed. I believe we deserve to bear the consequences of our inability to grasp fairly straight forward arguments and allowed ourselves to be confused by the NO campaign. Unfortunately the consequence of our action may not be apparent for our own generation but our children will rue this vote. Europe won’t be wagged by the Irish tail. Rightly so. We deserve to be left on the sidelines and we will be – eventually. The NO voters will abdicate responsibility when the consequences unfold. But history will be the final judge.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Lets be totally honest about the NO vote. It was a mix of disenchanted groups from farmers, fishermen, anti government, frustrated middle class, republican militarists and right wing vested interests.
Is there anyone u’ve left out of that mix Ignatius, I think u’ve covered most of the electorate there and btw they are all entitled to their vote, stop treating people who voted NO as if they are stupid or have another agenda.
Why if this treaty was so great for everybody didn’t they just put it to a referendum in each country instead of slipping it passed most people without their knowledge because they knew that the people of the EU would say NO.
We don’t want a United States of Europe, we don’t want unelected beaurocrats making laws for us when there’s so little transparency in the EU.
The EU is supposed to be a democracy and even in the lightest possible view of that term the fact that less than 1% of the population of the EU having a voice in this matter is laughable.
Yes history will be the judge and maybe history will record that Ireland once again stood up for itself against bullies and stood up for Europe as well.
June 17th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Ignatius: “As an Irishman who struggled with making our decision I finally came to the decision by reading fairly straigtforward documentation from our referendum commission”
what did you Vote? I don’t think you actually said but from the tone i would assume a Yes vote which is fine(as you are entitled) but You just seemed to harp on for ages about the consequences of the No Vote and how we have become a “lazy electorate” without actually stating reasons why you voted yes. Are we always lazy or just when you don’t get the decision you want? Maybe you belong in a “lisbon treaty Europe” if the documentation was so “straightforward” could you not have broken it down and highlighted your reasons for voting yes/no
June 17th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
I’m with Therese and Mr Heebs on this one Ignatius…
June 17th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Hi Dave…(May 29th, 2008 at 6:10 pm)
I quote You here:
“This is the only post I will make as I really don’t have the time to read the bed time story version of the treaty to everyone”…”I have spent quiet a bit of time canvassing for it…” “To be honest I just don’t know what you are looking for-” “What the f**K do people want?” “Your vote is not just a right it comes with responsibility… you need to read the info that is out there and make up your mind based on that information and considered though for how you would like to see the country proceeds with regard to the EU.” This is all the Much ado about Nothing… YOU..
Who ever asked you to read a Bedtime Story to me or any of the Irish People?? What makes your View Right… We live in a Democracy and so we all in Ireland Got to Vote.. on this Issue which I again say Had no Transparency and is Flawed and so we as a Nation were entitled to vote as they saw fit No… just as it was your Right to vote Yes.
Rico.. This is not an Irish rejection of Europe be assured Just a rejection to the content and lack of content..Lisbon Treaty.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:16 am
In Finland we don’t even have a change to vote! And if we did my vote would have been NO. So thank you for voting for me.
The Finnish media is letting us know that Irish will be “forced” to vote yes some time next year. Or you will be given extra privileges and no voting is not needed. Is this the idea of democratism? “Okay you voted no but we are still going to do it”.
Ireland voted no and we have to respect that!
June 18th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
I think it’s important that we get the message to our politicians that part of the reason for voting no was that other countries should have the right to vote too. It was certainly part of my decision to vote no and it would make me lean towards a no vote if they asked me again (so would the fact they were asking me again though!).
I feel the EU is moving slowly away from democracy!
June 18th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Green party press release via Damien which should interest you…
June 18th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
It’s a start but, eh, didn’t the Green party tell us to vote Yes to Lisbon?
June 18th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Mairead,
I am a member of a political party, the people of the country expect the parties i.e. the members of the parties to inform and educate on issues of national importance especially when it comes to constitutional referenda.
It’s not my fault and frankly I couldn’t give a flying if you can’t see the tongue and cheek nature of my opening line!!!
This post was written out of a huge and over whelming sense of frustration after a lot of canvassing… my view as expressed in this post was that people must take some responsibility for informing themselves. The amount of people who I met while canvassing who admitted that they had not read any of the information that had been sent to the but still felt that the government and political parties hadn’t done enough to inform them about the treaty was incredible.
What is it about my view that you think is not right? What makes my view right is that you probably along with most other sane and rational people would agree with it… but you decided while reading my post that it was a rant supporting the yes vote… where is that in the post? Can you quote that back to me cause I’m fairly certain that this post is about people informing themselves and I don’t advocate either side!
June 18th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
I also voted no to this treaty, athough that decision i can still sleep soundly with. However, what has made me quite disappointed and if im honest very angry is the reaction of other European politicians to our vote and more importantly our governmnets failure to accept that this treaty is dead and should not be put forward to the people again for a re run. Our government should respect our decision and not apologise to their european allies for the irish people.
Although, if this is the case and this treaty is put forward again i have no issues in voting no again as it is a disgrace that the irish are going to be bullied with scare tactics to fall in line or else
Its ironic, the EU are trying to move toward a more democratic structure yet they cannot accept a democratic vote!!!!
June 18th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Katie, I know what you mean. The general tone is very disappointing, even if there has been a wide range of responses.
I was saying in conversation last night that it’s a tricky time, because I honestly believe that there was no ‘Euro-Scepticism’ in the majority of No voters, however the tone now being served to us is in danger of getting a LOT of people’s backs up and potentially resulting in a wave of Euro-Scepticism which could easily have been avoided.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Hello Dave, I was Born and Raised FF… We had Politics for Breakfast Dinner and Tea. in Our House… At election everyone of us would have to and did willingly our Bit for the Good of the Party.. My Parents are now Gone God Rest them and I am Married and Have raised a Family of 6 Wonderful Talented Children. Who have had good educations and They have gone abroad for to experience the world and have some fun, and not because they had too. Ireland Is a wonderful Country and I would not let anyone put it down, It’s by Choice and love I live here and all my Children have come back and are working and helping to make Ireland and Europe a better Place.. What got to me about what you called Tongue and Cheek nature of your opening remark… If that remark was tongue and cheek, I’m a monkey Uncle… to me your opening remarks had Venom in it…( How Dare the Irish People Vote No!!! ) You had worked so hard…!!
I read and watched and Listened to all I could on the Lisbon Treaty and after all I read and heard and had seen I make up my own 49 and Holding Year Old mind and voted with My Conscience…
I do understand your frustration at a lot of the people But not the whole 50%
Question : Why in a previous election did the French and the Dutch Vote no to the Treaty and why weren’t all country not given a chance to vote?? I have had a bad feeling in my Gut for a long while Now. Regarding “My Party” ( but in saying that they are the best of a bad Lot, But I do feel they were so taken up with Bertie Leaving Office and Brian Cowan coming in they lost their way… I’ll say..) I am writing this on my way home from work.. I’m not even sure it makes any sense.. I would like to see a Democratic and Transparent Europe an Policy. Good for all her People , But me thinks we will not get that.. For their are lots of Dictators in the wings. ( Only My Humble Opinion for what its worth LOL )..Sorry Dave If I offened ..Slán
June 18th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
The Eurocrats will not accept the verdict of the Irish People voting in National Referendum –
And they will not accept that the German People should have a Right to Referendum on the EU, how glad Chancellor Angela Merkel is of that, 63 years after Hitler’s death and the collapse of the Third Reich.
They must be afraid of the Centenarians of Germany.
Merkel’s Social Democrats got where they are in Germany by running their own country and their own generation down, and it shows -
your slip is showing, Angela.
Under International Law the Treaty of Lisbon fell on Friday last when one of the high contracting parties, Ireland, voted against.
The situation now is as Nice.
Lisbon is Dead . They can certainly amend it, then they will have to run it through Irish Referendum again.
But under International Law, Lisbon Treaty is now legally dead, and that is binding on the EU and on all 27 Member States including Ireland.
The Irish Prime Minister’s only function is to inform the EU of this, no more than that – and no less than that.
Cowan has his instructions from the Irish People voting in National Referendum, he must carry out those instructions under the Constitution of Ireland under which he holds his Seal of Office.
Otherwise he is guilty of Dereliction of Duty in defiance of the Constitution and may be subject to Impeachment, even arrest to prevent him from acting further against the Constitutution and the Will of the People.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Mairead,
I think I have identified the source of the problem here… I wrote that post on the 29th of May over two weeks before the election… So I stand over the tongue and cheek nature of the comment, although I could with that misunderstanding over the timing of the post why you would think I was talking shite!
As for being born and raised FF… I’m sorry for your troubles
June 18th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Hey Dave I never at any time said you were talking Shiite .. I just felt you were Painting All the No Voters as Morons.. LOL, and that I was not having…hence the “Much a do.”. I knew that would get your gander up…..
Please don’t be sorry for my Trouble..LOL I had a very interesting and Happy Childhood. Never a dull Moment in our Household..:)
June 18th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
I was actually trying to paint all of the electorate as morons!!!! Well at least the ones who refused to do any reading or research for themselves and still insist that the politicians had failed to do their job of informing them!
Honestly it was a very very frustrating few weeks! I’m glad it is over now, I can get back to FF bashing
June 18th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Do One Better, Go stand in the next election.. ??
I don’t believe it’s over !!
June 19th, 2008 at 12:55 am
Deputy Martin Mansergh was spouting on in an empty Dail Chamber yesterday evening about how treaties like Lisbon may not be put for referendum in future,
I wonder would he be pontificating like that if Yes had won ?
and, thinking on it, I believe now more than ever, that most of all the people of Europe who are being trampled over by their national parliaments (just as Martin Mansergh advocates in areas of notorious No voters) are thanking the irish for voting No for them all.
And that’s a good feeling to go to bed with, Oiche Mhaith. – and may Biffo have a rough flight !
June 19th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Michael,
He can spout all he likes but anything that affects our Constitution MUST BE by law of our Supreme court put to the Irish in a referendum. The EU and our government tried their damndest to get around us having a referendum this time but our constitutional law is tight and couldn’t so instead they put it in this referendum that future ammendments MAY be subject to referendum in the future and not MUST be as it is now.
If we had ratified this referendum they could get away with changing our laws and our Constitution in the future without putting it to the Irish electorate. I hope everyone realises how close we came in this vote. If they break their own laws and re-package it again, I’ll never vote to support this act or that European Law is superior to our own Irish Supreme Court.
We’ve spent 800 yrs trying to get our own Constitution , what a shame it would be to hand it over to the EU less than 100 yrs later.
I too agree with you that most people of the EU are thanking us and are greatful that we have such a tight constitution.
I had an arguement with someone the other day, one of our local politicians in fact and on any of the points I put to him, he couldn’t answer me, as in “Would you go into a solicitors and sign an open ended document that can be changed without your say in the future?”
I could see by his face that he agreed with me but couldn’t break party stance on this as they were all ordered to come on the YES side . How in this day and age with our politicians more worried about their careers rather than their right to a free and democratic vote are we supposed to have faith in them that they’ll put us the Irish people ahead of themselves in the EU.
Dave: I had another arguement with a man the other day who’s comment was ” all the “NO’s” are eejits.” When I asked him why he thought this and after putting some of the same questions to him, he just repeated himself. I just gave him a parting comment that I was glad that I hadn’t come up against him in my debating team in school, I mean with stunning repartee like that he would’ve been unbeatable lololololololololol
So not only some of the NO’s didn’t understand this treaty and better to be safe if they didn’t that to ratify something because they were following like sheep.
I would like you to answer this question for me Dave, I mean can u tell me that u would sign this and put your faith in the EU to make important decisions for you without your say in the future???????
I’m sleeping soundly too Michael lol
June 19th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Bloody helll… read my flippin post again… check the date it was written on compared to the date of the feckin vote and then read it again… please tell me where i advocate one side or another or where i say that its only the no voters need to read up on it?
June 19th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Dave,
I’m sorry if I took u up wrong but u were canvassing for it so I persumed (maybe wrongly) that u were talking about the NO’s, I apologise if this is not the case however .
June 19th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
Thanks Therese,
I was talking about most of the people who I had met… regardless of the way they were intending to vote or even some who openly admitted that they just couldn’t give a flying and wouldn’t bother to vote at all (which is their right I know but I can’t help being annoyed!)
Apologies for being a bit harsh this morning, it had been a long night at work and I gets cranky!
To answer your question I think there was an awful lot of very useful change and reform in the treaty that would/will help us all in our day to day lives but probably in ways we won’t notice.
I think that on the whole the EU has proved itself time and again to be a fair and just organisation and that we have benefited greatly from membership.
However, and this is the important bit I guess, I do feel that the treaty should have been broken up into smaller more manageable and more connected reforms e.g. a reform of defence policy separate to reform of the commission, reform of tax policy separate to the charter of fundamental human rights… I think bundling all these things together in one package is what has caused the real problem and that is what our top level politicians have failed to grasp.
Now from a political point of view I think we may have shot ourselves in the foot by voting no because it would have been easier to sort out things we didn’t like with good some good political manoeuvring at a later date… I know people don’t like to hear it but it is a fact that we are only 0.8% of the EU and when you are in that situation you have to play the game a bit cuter! And we have not been cute.
But (and this is as important as my however above) the REAL mistake was made at the top levels of the EU when they decided they were going to press on with their preferred reforms regardless of the will of the people. And to that end I think, even though it may not have been the cute political thing to do, that the Irish people can have a clear conscience following the referendum… There will however I fear be a price to pay for this clear conscience.
I look forward to being attacked!
June 19th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Dear Dave,
Far from attacking you a lot of what u say makes sense and mostly I agree with it, and I have to say that the people I’ve met who had no idea what they were voting for annoyed me as well. It’s our duty to try to find out what is being asked of us and to vote according to our conscience, not following party stance as many politicians did or to prostitute our country’s freedom of referenda by gaining slightly better domestic deals as some institutions did.
There was a lot in this treaty that was good and would’ve been good for the country and perhaps the way to have gotten these passed would’ve been to as you say seperate them into smaller packages and then I would’ve happily voted for some of them. Apart, however, from the possible loss for the right to veto and the superiority of the EU court which I can’t see my way to ever handing over power to the EU or trusting them to do the best for us with that power. A serious problem also with this is that I was worried about the 5 out of every 15 years that we wouldn’t have a commissioner around the table at all to speak for us.
There is too little transparency in the EU and as I’ve said before I don’t want to be a part of a Utd States of Europe esp. when they seem set to pass things through law with only .8% having the chance to voice their opinions.
In saying that though I agree that the EU has been good for Ireland and I am not anti-EU by any means.
Hope you survived the attack, I must be losing my bite
:P
June 19th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Theresa Well Done, I agree with all you have said.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:00 am
In relation to institutional reform of the European Council, the criticism has been made in the past that the Council makes decisions behind closed doors. In future, when the European Council makes decisions, it will have to meet in public, so we will know the position that different countries have taken and the different arguments that are being put forward by various states.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:02 am
Apologies… the paragraph above was part of a larger post I was writing in word (because my spelling is terrible!) and I copied and pasted incorrectly!!!
The full post is below!
June 20th, 2008 at 12:02 am
Interesting that you single out those 3 things as non negotiables… the commission, the EU court and the veto.
The court has been vital in ensuring that the full benefits of EU law reached us the lowly citizens of the Union and it was made clear by the independent referendum commission that the court would not be able to over rule our constitution without a referendum here.
The commissioners are there to run their department for the whole of the EU and not to represent their countries view/interests in the commission. We have this problem in Ireland where the government plays geographical sugar daddy to the country with its distribution of ministers and an ever increasing army of junior ministers who all feather their own nests while in office to ensure re-election from their constituents.
Surely we given the chance to redesign our political landscape we would endeavour to remove the gombeenism?
By not having a commissioner for 5 of 15 years we were in the exact same position as Germany and France and all other member States. It is interesting to note that the larger states such as the two mentioned have already given up one of their two commissioners to facilitate the new member states getting a commissioner and that also under Nice II there is an agreement that once there are 27 states the size of the commission would be reduced to make it more efficient… although there is no provision as to how this would be achieved. Under the Irish presidency of the EU with the master of mediation (that’d be Bertie) the system of rotation was agreed and thought to be the fairest way of achieving the reduction in size. The key thing here is that the reduction is happening anyway!
The other thing to note about the Commission is that it does not actually make or finalise decisions on behalf of the EU. What the Commission does is bring forward proposals and then it gives those proposals to the European Parliament and the European Council (where government is represented) for amendment and final decision. So, the crucial bodies to have Irish representation on permanently are the Council and the European Parliament.
The criticism you made that decision making in the EU happened behind closed doors was also addressed in Lisbon. Under Lisbon rules, when the European Council makes decisions, it will have to meet in public, so we will know the position that different countries have taken and the different arguments that are being put forward by various states.
As for the veto I can totally see where you are coming from there… A small nation must defend itself and the veto was our key weapon against being over run by a rampant EU! But the government did identify and ring fence the key areas which Ireland regards as non of the EU’s business. In fact Lisbon for the first time set in stone the area’s where the EU would take the legislative lead and where our national parliament would reign supreme. We would still maintain our veto on issues of tax, neutrality and common security/defence.
I still stand over what I wrote above regarding mistakes made by the politicians and I think that to throw the treaty back at us for another vote would be a serious treat to our democracy.
I think the No side ran a very effective campaign and that the Yes side made a dogs dinner of it to say the least. The No argument was easier to sell and the Yes side were constantly on the back foot clearing up ambiguity and sometimes blatant lies being told by some on the No side.
That said the people have spoke and that is that as far as I am concerned.
June 20th, 2008 at 10:14 am
Dave,
“The court has been vital in ensuring that the full benefits of EU law reached us the lowly citizens of the Union and it was made clear by the independent referendum commission that the court would not be able to over rule our constitution without a referendum here.”
I believe in regarding to this the text of the treaty said “MAY” be subject to referenda, not obliged to be and as regarding this it’s too dangerous. The only reason we had a referendum at all was because of Raymond Crotty who took on the government in 1986 and the EU could not get around it, in future would they be able to if Lisbon was ratified???????? Yes is the answer I think u’ll find.
Regarding the commissioners, why is 27 commissioners two many to have at one time, the effect since the new countries have joined is things seem to be happening faster not slower as was the case. If 27 commissioners are too many for 490 million people how the hell do we survive with the amount of ministers we have for 4 million. I agree there are too many here but 27 commissioners to speak for 490 million does not, in my book, seem excessive.
It seems in the paper “Times” today that there is growing support for holding on to the 27 commissioners in Europe. I know this was ratified in the Nice II treaty . Now are they thinking of ammending that in order to get us on board without asking the other 99.2% of the EU elecorate again.
This is one of the many problems I have with the EU, if we don’t do what they want, we’ll change it to suit the few and get what we want anyway approach.
Dave you put across very good arguements and I enjoy the debate.
Mairead ta lol
June 20th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Dave, looks like the treaty will be put to us again. If it is, will you be voting yes again? Sorry if I’m putting you on the spot!
June 20th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
hi John, i didn’t vote yes this time around… And i doubt that would change next time out under the circumstances you suggest!
June 21st, 2008 at 12:06 am
I voted No and I agree to the way Dave sees the way the Treaty of Lisbon would affect us. I was worried myself about the extent of the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice under the Lisbon Treaty when I voted No – and I am still concerned about that jurisdiction unless Lisbon is renegotiated and amended in this particular. In the meantime I feel that we would need the interpretation of independent senior council here, and for counsel’s verdict to be explained as simply as possible, perhaps by the very best independent professional journalists. They are speaking of allowing protocols to assure us, but I ask – how far does a protocol go under International Law, and what affect does such protocol have on our own Law, a protocol being an agreement that everybody agrees to keep, but does not or need bnot necessarily keep it. In computer-speak we have our protocols, famously TCP/IP protocols – hackers abuse them all the time ! I feel that the only way out without renegotiating is for the ECJ to publicly declare itself inferior to the Constitution and Supreme Court of Ireland. And now with the Czechs Republic possibly setting its face against Lisbon, it seems that the Treaty will be finished anywa, so why therefore should the irish, or any, government attempt to save what is rejected by the irish People and now for a second time heading for collapse – the british now have their Court difficulties with the Lisbon Treaty too. In fact it is looking as if the Irish No voters are going to be proved to be right. Now, if this happens will Cowen, Kenny & Co say to the Irish No Voters, “Hey, you lot were right and we were wrong ! ”
Hell will freeze over first ! Michael McGrath, Kilkenny City.
June 21st, 2008 at 12:04 pm
What I dont understand is how the Nice treaty is in effect when we voted NO to that too???
June 21st, 2008 at 3:57 pm
We voted yes to Nice II… the same treaty with a few sweetners thrown in to keep us happy!!!
June 21st, 2008 at 4:36 pm
It now seems as if the EU has nothing to offer us economically, and that we offer much more economically to the EU between our fissheries and also allowing in hundreds of thousands of people from all over the EU to good jobs here.
There is the CAP, but that is money to farmers voting Yes that none of the rest of us see except shops and pubs – in exchange, you could say, for our fisheries and our natural gas out at sea.
All that is left for us then is the EU market in return for all we do for them – perhaps Associate Membership of the EU like Norway, the richest country in the world, would be good for Ireland too >
I do not see any reason whatsoever for any hurry to renegotiate, nor for another vote on the Lisbon reaty which offers nothing but more Diktat for Ireland.
I see no reason whatsoever why we should worry about getting Cowen & Co out of their embarrassment, who cares ?
Watch the EU quake if we threatened to send back their immigrants by the planeload !!!
All that said, I do not like to have to climb into bed with Joe Higgins and the Extreme Left again, so hopefully my Government will spare me that.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:06 am
IT BEGINS !!!! Was wondering how long it would take, front page of The Times this windy Sun Morn, “Ireland to face Lisbon II next spring” I don’t care what they change, the fact they might ask again is bull, so I’ll be voting NO again. I really can’t believe that if this headline comes to frutition they’d expect it to pass. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Wouldn’t it be wonderful to be free again, sigh…
June 22nd, 2008 at 4:01 pm
I have to disagree Michael,
We have never been so truly free as a nation from British rule and influence than when we joined the EEC in 1973!
I don’t think people grasp the importance of the economy of scale that EU membership grants us. Without that we will sink as a small isolated island nation.
The agreements that say Norway and Switzerland have will not be extended to us… they did not join and pack it in when things didn’t suit them; they ploughed their own furrow from the start and declined numerous offers of membership!
Once again I’m not trying to advocate one side or the other… just pointing out that both sides have consequences… (Assuming that we are now talking about Lisbon II)
If/When we do vote on Lisbon II we may well be voting to decide whether on not we remain in the EU. This will be a grave decision one which will shape the future of our country like no vote before. We will be asked do we want to be an island off the coast of a rapidly developing EU or do we want to be part of it- shaping its future.
My honest opinion in that instance… we are better of inside… with out seats in the Parliament, our ministers around the table and for 10 out of 15 years our commissioner too!
I’ll take my chance with abortion and corporate tax rates… no one denies that neutrality is safe… so fuck it lads… the EU isn’t really a monster… its 470 million more people just like us all trying to pay the bills and made a good life for those coming behind.
June 22nd, 2008 at 4:21 pm
To be free of Barroso & co telling Ireland what to do, wouldn’t it be wonderful, sigh…
To be like Norway and Switzerland,
Free, heavenly…agh…
June 22nd, 2008 at 6:44 pm
As much as the principle of voting for a second time annoys me I think we need to be sensible if/when we’re asked to vote again. We said no because the deal didn’t suit us. If they change enough that it suits us then we’d be foolish to say no again.
I’m no until proven otherwise though! ;P
As far as needing the EU goes…we’ll I want to stay in…but not at any price. If the deal is right then fine, if it’s not then I say let’s take our chances on our own. We can make good deals as an independent little island off the coast of the EU.
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Wouldn’t it be lovely to be free of all that Brussels diktat, to be FREE. And we can be too.
Associate membership will give us all that we have (except perhaps the farmers and the cap, but that’s going anyway) and as Associates we will not be under any EU regulations at all.
Now, what’s wrong with that ?
Some people want to be “at the centre of things”, making rules within the EU for everybody else – I don’t, and I now suspect that the majority of the Irish people don’t either.
Also, remember, when the EU fines the Irish Government ( a few hundred millions to date, I think) it is we the Irish taxpayers who have to pay those fines, not the authorities who break EU rules.
As Associates we would not have to put up with any of this.
And as Associates we could as well as having the EU market, make our independent deals globally with all other countries, this is why Norway is so wealthy !!!
And we would be a bridge, the natural bridge, between Europe and the USA, with a solid foot in each camp.
Oh yes, to be FREE -
And Wealthy too …
Imagine.
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Jesus Michael,
Can I have some of what ever you are smoking!!! If we go, we’ll be gone. The will be no good will politically to negotiate “associate” membership so that’s is totally out of the question.
As for Norway… oil and gas my friends… that’s why they are so wealthy!!!
Give me 3 examples of where the EU has imposed something on the Irish public against our will? Membership of the EU has had incredible benefits for us all, with the exception of the fishing industry which was sold out for a few extra quid for the farmers.
This is politics at the top level… there is no room for hissy fits, pouting or other forms of childish behaviour. You have to look at it from a cold unemotional, economical, social and environmental point of view.
The EU has a far better track record than any Irish government on fiscal management, general economics, environmental issues, human rights, the arts, social funding, educational issues, infrastructural funding and has a total lack of gombeenism!!!! How do we not get it?
As for these fines you mention… bold EU, fining the poor gombeens in Dublin for wasting their allowance from Brussels!
Sorry now Michael but even on the most simplistic level how much have they fined us compared to how much they have given us? How much have we the Irish tax payer gotten from all those really lovely kind, German, French, Dutch, English and Belgian tax payers? And then we turn about and say thanks for the money, we don’t like the rules now so we’re off… but we still want to have all the benefits… just none of the responsibility…
So back to the child like analogy… we are like the 19yr old teenager who want to live at home, pay no rent, come and go as they please but still get their room heater, use the shower and toiletries’, have their laundry done and borrow the car at the weekends… Wake up Michael; you’re in dream land I’m afraid.
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:20 pm
And there’s more!!!
Not only would we be free… we would be free of the following;
• Free from money to build roads
• Free from money to develop rural and disadvantaged areas.
• Free from money for tourism development projects under LEADER funding
• Free from money for many arts and cultural projects
• Free to negotiate prices of oil and gas in competition with the EU… gee I wonder how that’ll work out?
• Free to represent ourselves at WTO talks… that’ll be fun…. Remember how the world listened to Dev at Versailles?
• Free to have our own currency again… with the Irish central bank setting the interest rates… how did that work out last time? Does anyone remember the 80’s… 16%?
But we’d be free from the tyranny that has reigned down upon us since the Euro and all those oppressive rulings of the EU courts making all our children have at least one abortion and sending our troops to die on foreign soil for oil and making us a 3rd world nation!!! Free, free, free I tell you!
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:32 pm
What if they say like it or lump it Eoin?
If the other 26 nations ratify it… and then say… look Ireland we want to run the EU this way. If you don’t then tough? What then?
As the Yes side said on more than once… In fact they were accused of scare tactics for saying it… there is likely no room for reworking the deal!!!
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:55 pm
It remains really difficult to get an objective view on this whole Lisbon thing.
Like Eoin, I’d agree that if we need to be sensible, however I think this ‘democratic deficit’ as it is being widely referred to needs to be addressed as well as specific issues with the treaty itself.
For example, I heard tell of research to be carried out to ascertain why the Irish people voted No. I’d like also to get a reading on how many other countries would have liked to vote on the issue and a poll on how that vote would go.
Is Ireland *really* out on it’s own here, or are the governments of the member countries out on their own.
We are still getting, from a variety of rational and intelligent people, a huge range of opinions from ‘the sky is falling’ to ‘life continues on as usual’.
Makes one wonder all the more about the strange reality of the huge differences in opinion on the importance or the impact of the Lisbon Treaty.
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:24 am
Dave, if they say “like it or lump it” then to be honest with you I’d lump it. The Treaty was supposed to require 100% ratification. Yes, it seems ridiculous for such a small percentage of the EU’s population to hold everything up but I’d be more willing to listen to that argument if more the EU’s population got to vote on it.
As it is 100% of the EU’s population who voted on the Treaty returned a NO vote!
I don’t believe that the EU would want or be able to put such an ultimatum to us anyway. That’s one of the reasons I’m happy to continue in the EU, despite not agreeing with the Treaty.
What I don’t like however, is the way people within the EU are suggesting that we might face a “like it or lump it” situation. By doing this they get to scare people with the idea while still being able to say “we never said that.” It’s a bluff!
I’d be very interested in seeing that poll too Frank.
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:44 am
Eoin,
I guess the point I’m making is mostly a political one… I do think that there might be a movement within the EU (at a high level) that might want to kick our isolated asses back to the 80’s if we don’t play the game.
Even if I’m wrong on that one (I probably am) I think the effects on our day to day lives would not be worth the sacrifices’ we would have to make to continue playing the game!
We really need to stop worrying about the rest and focus on what is in our best interests! If the citizens of the rest of the EU want to vote then let them lobby their politicians let them write to their newspaper editors and let them complain to their national broadcaster (and write on blogs!)
OK here is the crux of my argument… We are better off inside the EU working with the institutions to shape a better future for ourselves than trying to compete as a tiny, underdeveloped and poorly managed banana republic. If we are in the game we can influence the outcome…
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:46 am
By the way the results of that poll are published in the Sunday Business Post… Obviously I have the SBP and I will trawl through it tonight and try and put some stuff up here on Bifsniff tonight!
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:15 am
Dave you can’t mean: and I quote:
“We are better off inside the EU working with the institutions to shape a better future for ourselves,” While the Lisbon Treaty stays as it is??
There will have to be amendments to the said Treaty for the Irish People(No Vote’s) Who have already spoken to change there Mind and Vote Yes, But while there appears to be other agendas at work and no Transparency, or again I say it, No Democracy only BullyBoy Tactics, forget it, The Irish are not fools and will not be treated as such..
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:20 am
What I’m saying is Mairead that if the rest of the 26 member states ratify the treaty they would be well within their rights to turn around and say to us to ratify of shag off!
In that instance we would be faced with the choice of opting in or out of the EU in which case we are better off!
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:25 am
Better off inside that EU of course…
The Sunday Business Post website has several good articles detailing the polls conducted during the week… http://www.sbpost.ie
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:37 am
See Dave that is where I disagree with you I think they EU are not well within their rights to ratify as it stands at this moment, and our Government should insist they don’t.
I see where you are coming from but I can’t agree sorry.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:26 am
Dave, you are panicking:
No EU State or Group of EU States has any right whatsoever to get together and gang up on any other EU State or States, no matter what justification they may feel that they have. Please bear this essential fact in mind and relax.
Nor can any group of the other EU States go their way and implement the Lisbon Treaty for themselves, they may ratify it, as they are doing, without recourse to the wishes of their peoples, but they cannot bring it into International Law without the assent of the People of ireland, that is fact, that is the Law.
So we do not have to vote on the Lisbon Treaty again, and, no, we do not have to vote yes to that Treaty against our will, in fact we should, all of us, including those who voted Yes, protest against this attempt to force the Lisbon Treaty down the throats of us Irish people instead of respecting our verdict as they did the verdicts of France and Holland against the European Constitution.
Some of the big EU States and their smaller clientelist States may try to hold private meetings without us, behind our backs, but this is all they can do, and by resorting to such sneakiness they will only show their undemocratic natures up to the world. And we can object to this carry-on behind our backs as well, and publicise such blackguarding internationally.
(BTW Dave, we have as much gas as Norway ! I think they have iron that we do not have, that’s all. They also pay circa 240 millions a year to the EU for EU services. They can’t join the EU because their coalition governments can never come to agreement on the issue).
And now, it seems, we have the Czechs Republic opting out as well, also the British Government being challenged by the High Court on their ratification of the Lisbon treaty.
This Lisbon treaty is breaking up because it is sneaky and against the spirit of democracy, and as such decent people cannot possibly subscribe to it.
Re Associate membership, the others led by Barroso would be mightily relieved to grant ireland Associate Membership, which would be worth all the struggle Ireland has had to face against those who would shackle her.
Associate membership would mean, basically, the end of the Cap payments to Irish farmers, the restoration of our fisheries to us
- and, above all, the restoration of our Sovereignty, Liberty and all our freedoms as a nation to us, as the writ of the EU is removed from Ireland, the writ of their ECJ Court no longer applicable, their EU Commission Diktat removed from Ireland too, and their damned fines as well,
Above all it would mean Freedom at last for Ireland – and prosperity too, probably better than ever as we retain our EU Markets and are FREE to go and negotiate trade agreements with every other country on the planet. As EU Associates we could, and would, end up the richest country on Earth.
(Concerning motorway construction, Dave, it is all PPPs now, with Tolls paying the way, as we see the M3 being pushed through the Tara Valley as a double-tolled road ! ).
Remember, they can do nothing, they are helpless, even if Ireland refuses forever to ratify their Lisbon Treaty. And that we should ! If only to have our own lives and freedoms back again to chart our own destiny among the nations of the Earth.
Now wouldn’t that be worthwhile, wouldn’t it.
To wake up in the morning, every morning, FREE, Free to run our own affairs without interference from anybody on Earth, to play our part as we always do in international forums of the U.N., but otherwise to be one hundred per cent sovereign, one hundred per cent neutral, one hundred per cent free to enjoy our own nationhood in peace and prosperity.
With the No Vote we have made a great start, let us now continue, we are on the right road, until the Dream come true.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:38 am
Hear Hear Michael, I Love your Optimism, LOL Yes Dave Best watch out for the Blood Pressure. Good Morning, God Bless, Have a Good Week Slán
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:52 am
Dave, you seem to think that we can only work out the destiny of Ireland by making “Irish” laws in Brussels and Strasburg ?
Surely it is more proper that we as a Nation make our laws in our own Parliament, Dail and Seanad Eireann in Dublin, and that, even now, the more laws we make in the Oireachtas, and indeed at regional and local level the better !
There are rumblings now that the Polish Government is not satisfied…Sarcozy is lashing Mandelson while he doesn’t give a blind F*** about Sarcozy or the IFA, or the irish Government, or indeed the British Government either (from which he was twice dropped).
In less than two years the new British Conversative Government will more than likely initiate procedures to withdraw the UK from the EU, and will eventually probably settle on Associate membership which is the way we should be going, but we are making progress in such a direction too.
I do as well take issue with Dave’s idea that Brussels can make laws for us better than our own governments can, I think he will admit that he is not seriously suggesting this …
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:36 am
You keep harping on about freedom Michael… yet you can’t put forward any way in which membership of the EU makes us less free? If anything in my humble opinion it makes us more free as a nation.
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:10 am
Dave,
“We really need to stop worrying about the rest and focus on what is in our best interests!”
While I agree with this to an extent – as in we need to focus on making sure the Lisbon Treaty and all further treaties are right for Ireland – I also feel that we have a responsibility to help the cause of those in other countries who want to vote on this issue. If it was the other way around we would be talking here about how we needed the French/German/British/Whoever to help our cause.
The days of Ireland being a small player in Europe who should keep her head down have passed. We’re too wealthy now. We have responsibilities to ourselves and to our fellow EU members!
“We are better off inside the EU working with the institutions to shape a better future for ourselves than trying to compete as a tiny, underdeveloped and poorly managed banana republic. If we are in the game we can influence the outcome…”
I agree with you Dave. We are better off in the EU. I guess I see standing up for ourselves as influencing the outcome. I’m not happy to be in a game where the other players are dictating the rules though. In that instance…”it’s my ball and I’m going home”
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:11 am
Thanks for the SBP link.
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:27 am
The problem is though Eoin… it is their ball!!!
The phrase about biting nose and ones face springs to mind!
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:35 am
It seems Dave that we differ in our opinion on what would be best for the country. You want to stay in the EU and it seems at any cost, while I want to stay in the EU, but only if it’s the right EU for Ireland.
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:55 am
No Eoin, not at any cost… but I think that the costs incurred for Lisbon are worth paying. I’ve yet to see the no side put forward any tangable “loss” or “cost” to offset the gains most of which are tangable associated with EU membership
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:57 am
I’m glad to hear it Dave. I guess I’m waiting for the Yes side to reassure me of what those costs would be. Too many we’ll decide this later or may effects for my liking.
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:59 am
Dave, we are Unfree.
Whenever you have to anxiously look over your shoul;der, hold your breath, wonder what’s to become of you next, you are Unfree. That’s what a man on the run from the Police does, that’s a prisoner, Dave. And that’s Ireland vis-a-vis the EU right now as our politicians, most of them, cringe to the EU Masters, as they forecast dire consequences, as EU politicians and Commissioners advise us irish what’s good for us, telling us what we should do (with the “Or Else” always implicit), with experts discussing Ireland’s “Fate”, with our own newspapers warning us of the terrible WOE that awaits us, and with nobody but Britain, “the old enemy”, with a kind word. Dave we are Unfree, and, “Ireland Unfree shall never be at Peace ! ” – Remember Him, Dave…
What would he say, what would he do ? That is quite clear and obvious.
I am afraid you have caught a severe dose of the Beggars Mentality, Dave, and sadly you’re not the only one, 35 years of the EU have done that to Ireland, blinded us so that we can no longer see the joyous future that awaits us – in Peace and Prosperity, when we are ourselves again, in our own Land again, when we are Free !
We have struck the first blow for that freedom, all goes well.
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Seriously Michael… what ever it is ur smokin… please please share!!!
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Dave, is your office in Government Buildings, by any chance ?
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:14 pm
not yet
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I see…
getting ready to sell out even before you’re elected…
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:22 pm
… a half-decent man would wait !
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Da Trooth shall set you free:
http://www.europeanmovement.net/wordpress/
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:01 pm
In reply to what he calls the latest threats by the French Foreign Minister from Paris to Ireland, Economist Moore McDowell has just condemned “Harrassment from Paris”, over Newstalk, saying that this is the last thing we want ! Mr. McDowell’s voice quivered with anger as he denounced this latest French interference in Ireland’s affairs.
Freedom, Dave, eh ?
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:17 pm
You think that by leaving the EU that there will be no foreign influence on our domestic affairs… dream on Michael!
Any idea how much of our GDP comes from foreign companies… how many companies have relocated to Ireland becuase it gave them access to the EU. You are deluded!
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:24 pm
There will be less dictation as we have just now experienced from the French Foreign Minister – Harrassment from Paris !!! And from Brussels, and from Strasburg, and from…
All companies in Ireland, including foreign companies based here, will have full and complete access to the entire European Market under Associate membership such as Norway has, and such as Ireland can have for the asking, no problem at all.
And even better, as Associates, we can, untramelled by EU regulations negotiate more and more business and trade with every country on the planet !
We would be blindingly rich and powerful.
BTW, I don’t think you stopped to read Da Trooth :
http://www.europeanmovement.net/wordpress/
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:33 pm
…though, personally I do not want to be either rich or powerful, just comfortable with leisure for spiritual needs, pastimes and sport, the Good Life which we in Ireland can have if we can only see it – and our eyes are opening more all the time…
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:37 pm
…my time is almost up, it’s the future Ireland I’m thinking of, I thank God for being born here in Ireland, for experiencing decency from the people of England and the friendship of so many Americans in my time, for these are our real friends – not those who threaten us from Paris and Brussels !
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Irish People are raging at all these threats against Ireland, as I write Lunchtime on Newstalk is inundated with phoners most of whom are voting NO if there is another referendum on the Lisbon Treaty no matter what the “guarantees” that go with it – the vote is 60-40 in favour of NO right now. You can participate by going over to http://www.newstalk.ie/lunchtime. I believe that in another second referendum there will be as many as One Million No Voters who will bury this Lisbon Treaty for all time on behalf of the Peoples of Ireland and Europe.
http://www.europeanmovement.net/wordpress/
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Apologies, Newstalk obviously hasn’t set that page up yet – but get ready to phone/email/text your comments into Questions & Answers, RTE, which should be HOT tonight, what with all the threats against Ireland.
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:43 pm
OK so what is so wrong with the idea of an EU super state… like in the USA where each state has control over certain things but the federal governement controls things in the interest of all… eg education, defence, roads etc… whats so bad about that idea?
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Ah, now we see Dave admitting, now that he is driven to it, the Real Purpose of the Lisbon Treaty, Angela Merkel the German Chancellor, Sarcozy the French President and Il Duce Berlusconi of Italy, and other Undesirables wanting to set up their own Fourth Reich in Europe -
Of course they are entitled to if they want, it even sounds exciting -
But not by stomping all over us Irish and all our fellow European Peoples on their way to World Domination !
Ah now the leopard shows his spots, doesn’t he Dave -
You declare you see nothing wrong with Federal European Control of Defence, that you see nothing wrong with Federal European Control of Education, well at least you are more honest about the Real purpose of the Lisbon Treaty than Cowan and Kenny and their ilk.
A United States of Europe, no less ? What grandiose dreams of power you have, Dave, though you are entitled to your dreams, but not off Ireland’s back !
And what we are asking is: Where is our Constitution, where are our Courts, where are our Laws in all of this ?
All trampled upon by your United States of Europe Juggernaut !
http://www.europeanmovement.net/wordpress/
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:11 pm
“Lisbon, Lisbon Uber Alles,
Uber Alles aus der welt…..
Come on Dave, let’s march on Moscow,
Delhi, Beijing, Tokyo – and finally -
WASHINGTON !!!
Ar aghiadh le Fine Gael,
C’mon the Blueshirts !
Haw haw Haw…
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Correction:
“Ar Aghaidh le Fine Gael,
C’mon the Blueshirts ! ”
eh, Dave …
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:20 pm
A share in your European Empire, Dave ?
Thanks, but no thanks !
Michael.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:21 pm
http://www.europeanmovement.net/wordpress/
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:23 pm
No Michael,
I asked a question… It you have shown yourself up as a raving lunatic!!!
Seriously
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Dave is reversing back fast now -
Dave, watch that Juggernaut behind you,
Careful !!!
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Michael… There is no reversing going no here. I asked a question and you went off on some mad conspiracy theory rant about a fourth reich! And you still didn’t answer the question- what would actually be wrong with it? Now the obvious answer is on one actually wants it, except maybe as you point out a few high level euro politicians… So now that i’ve given the easy answer you need to actually think of one for yourself…
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Hi Dave and Michael .. Im enjoying the two of you…LOL
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:44 pm
“We really need to stop worrying about the rest and focus on what is in our best interests!”
Dave, as I said to you on instant messaging chat:
So it’s not about us worrying about the others it’s worrying about OUR support of such erosion of democrocy.
Also you say:
“The problem is though Eoin… it is their ball!!!”
NO. It’s not, we are a member state of this European Union and as a memeber state we said NO to Lisbon. It’s not Ireland’s ball, or Europe’s ball it’s OUR ball.
Seriously, between the nature of this treaty, the Nice fiasco and now the possible repeat of the Nice fiasco, democracy may be well and truly dead in the water.
Democracy is not easy, no one said it was – it’s a bitch. But it’s there to safeguard the people.
This is not democracy.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Again, to be clear, my quote above is slightly out of context, and so I should clarify that I wish to remain in the EU, but the EU needs to carefully examine it democratic principles.
June 23rd, 2008 at 8:02 pm
You reversed back fast, Dave, Haw Haw Haw, and then you went into histrionic convolutions !!!
You’ll have to be better than that on the doorsteps next year, Dave, to grab another Euro Parl seat for Fine Gael in Dublin !
Don’t worry, you’re getting great training here,
Haw Haw haw…
June 23rd, 2008 at 8:14 pm
It just struck me, the Irish must by now be easily the very best educated population in Europe about the EU –
It takes a good one like you to fool them, Dave !
June 24th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Dave ” the fourth reich!” in respect to the EU well it really is not a mad rant you know. Not when the whole idea came from Dr Horst Jecht at a conference held in Berlin in 1942.
Followed by another in 1944 entitled “How Germany will dominate the peace when it loses the war”.
You see that this EU idea was born during the Third Reich!
June 24th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
The Fourth Reich strikes me as a little sensationalist. Yes, there’s a possibility that someone might try and use the EU for World Domination or whatever but we’re a couple of steps away from that yet. I’m not saying don’t guard against it, but I don’t think we should make it a main focus of the debate either.
We want a fair EU for big and small countries alike. If we focus on getting that out of the Lisbon Treaty then we will also be guarding again any fourth reich to come.
June 24th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Further I have to say I really enjoyed reading the next piece, which exemplifies the singular craftiness of the politicians!
The following quote is from the founder of the European Movement, Jean Monnet in a private correspondence.
“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”
Jean Monnet again: “The fusion of economic functions would compel nations to fuse their sovereignty into that of a single European State”, 3rd April 1952
June 24th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
The ESRI report indicating the start of a recession was rushed out in a most timely fashion, wasn’t it – to frighten the shit out of the Irish people into voting Yes the next time round. That’s the murky world in which these bureaucrats and eurocrats operate, that’s how they operate, that’s how they fool people into curtailing their own freedom. At least Taoiseach Brian Cowen is showing signs of copping on to their game when he says that the ESRI economists are a pessimistic lot.
It’s all in the timing.
June 24th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Then the Big Lie was hurled against the UKIP that they are Racist just because they are against a United States of Europe and that they cheered on the irish No Vote in the Euro Parliament.
The FACT of the matter is that the UKIP is not Racist – it has coloured, black and Jewish members in high party positions. It has Irish MEP Kathy Sinnott, a brilliant woman in its Independent and Democratic Group in the European Parliament – Kathy is in fact Chairperson of the Democratic Group.
Then Fine Gael’s Avril Doyle MEP, one of the Billionaire Belton family of Dublin, savaged Jim Allister MEP of Northern Ireland just because Jim celebrated Ireland’s No Vote, but more sinisterly because Jim is a Unionist , talk about the Pro-Treatyite Yes Voters causing division and strife which is what they are doing as poor losers ever since the No side looked like winning !!! Wjhere is the Spirit of the Good friday Agreement with such savage mauling in the Euro parliament such as Irish Unionist Jim Allister suffered at the mouth of Avril Doyle, and a most powerful scorful mouth hers is too ! (though Avril is a lovely lady when you meet her “off duty” as I have). I’d say her poor husband is rather hen-pecked , though.
Then Avril rounded on an MEP wearing the irish jersey just because he was jailed for 7 months for being caught, when he was out of work, collecting a few extra pounds on the dole than he should have -
Billionaire Belton Avril would know nothing of that ordinary world of the ordinary small man and the little woman
- Arrogant Avril, like her Brussels Elite fellows, that’s another reason us Irish voted No, and a million of us will vote No next time round !
June 24th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
The more I think about this Lisbon business the less I like it and recently I started mulling over in my head the notion that now would be the opportune time to consider pulling out of the EU altogether.
We Irish have always viewed the EU as a benign institution. What if we have been wrong? Or more likely, what if we’ve been right up to now, but now the EU has gone too far and it’s time to end the relationship.
Could we make a go of things on our own? I think that’s the important question right now. There’s a malaise afoot in the country, a queasy, uneasy kind of feeling where everyone knows there’s something wrong but nobody can quite put their finger on it. The current direction isn’t looking too good; maybe it’s time to try something radically different.
Let’s look at energy. We should be able to be self-sufficient in energy; the Corrib gas field is vast; other off-shore fields exist and further afield Rockall remains unresolved. We have plenty of coastline for wave and wind power. No sun for solar power, so that’s out. But nuclear hasn’t even yet been seriously considered, so all in all Ireland could be energy independent.
We have most of Europe’s best fishing grounds-or looked at another way, the EU has the best of our fishing grounds- they are of immense value and if properly managed could be enough to guarantee a standard of living at least commensurate with that of Iceland.
That’s before we look at agriculture. Freed of CAP and EU directives Ireland could be more than the butter factory it is today where farmers are paid ‘not’ to produce. There’s plenty of arable land there not being used or else just turned over to pasture. Look at the Dutch-no land and net food exporters.
So we’ve fed and heated ourselves, not doing too badly on our own. Now we can concentrate on finding a quality of living that is rewarding and makes us proud of being Irish. This is the time to ask our Unionist and Dissenting fellow Irishmen do they want to share in the process of creating a prosperous, advanced and truly independent Ireland and in an appropriate gesture the flag of 1798 becomes the flag of the country.
So, as I was saying maybe opting out now would be the best thing ever to happen us. I wonder does Brian Cowen ever have such thoughts?
June 25th, 2008 at 1:11 am
Associate Membership is the answer, we would have the world at our feet !
June 25th, 2008 at 1:18 am
But Michael, if this Associate membership business is all that you make it out to be then why aren’t they all at it?
June 25th, 2008 at 2:04 am
Because, Martin, they are members of the most exclusive, most enjoyable, and second most powerful club in the world after the USA (if you leave out the Catholic Church).
They would lose all their big salaries, expenses, high jet-setting lifestyles, and, above all, power to legislate over the lives of 500 million people just like ourselves.
The would grant us Associate membership immediately without question, they would be thrilled to do so, because we are in their eyes an irresponsible little island people mucking up their grandiose plans for a United States of Europe.
And even if they manage somehow to haul their best-laid plans contained in the Lisbon Treaty out of the mire, they are still unsure of us into the future.
tjhey can do what they like with almost all of the other 26, perhaps experiencing some minor problems with the Czechs, maybe with the next British Conservative Government who, likely, are going to pull out and go for Associate membership anyway:
Associate membership means, basically, that we are left with the entire internal market,
but we would have our fisheries back in their entirety, worth untold billions forever into the future ! Our sea energy, as you say, too.
We would have to pay an administrative fee, as Norway does, of circa 240 millions a year, chicken feed in the scheme of things.
Brian Cowen knows this, but he has to keep all his lackeys happy, or he is GONE !
Also for Brian to say anything in public would be like the Archbishop of Dublin expressing his doubts publicly about Jesus, for God’s sake !
(BTW I am a member of Fianna Fail, related by marriage to Liam Aylward MEP, one sound fellow – Liam doesn’t like to hear me talking like this either ! I do it all the time in the local “Kilkenny People”, and I am regarded here as in Kilkenny as the unofficial spokesperson of the No camp. At least Liam actually read the Lisbon Treaty, for all the good it done him, I remarked. ).
We have a wonderful Window of Opportunity for Ireland right now, let’s not waste it !
Generations would curse us if we do.
Cheers,
Michael.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:44 am
The one disadvantage of Associate Membership is that we would not be there at all at the table as we would have not a single vote on anything the EU decides on Commerce and Trade although their decisions would affect us together with all the other 26 in matters of trade and commerce.
A tiny price to pay seeing as we have substantially no say anyway in matters of Trade and Commerce, as witness the World Trade Talks that we could not possibly veto, no matter what Brian Cowen assured Irish farmers, as you will see…
In any case it is not nice to be the country casting a veto – everybody else hates you !
The converse is that as Associate Members the EU would have no power over us except to fix our annual fee which would be in the region of a quarter of a million Euros – chickenfeed in the Irish National Budget, and just imagine all those luscious trade agreements business based in Ireland would be tying up with the rest of the 200 odd countries in the world at our complete leisure -
Multinationals would beflocking to set up here, they would be queuing up at our door.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
This all sounds very encouraging Michael. Would associate membership also mean the return of duty free? Happy days!
June 25th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Oh the nostalgia of consuming large doses Duty Frees at 4p a Tot with the Grey Funnel Line and the roaring headaches next day, which were only eased by more & more Tots!
Thank you Martin for such (hic) nostalgia!
Of course we most definitely must return to our former status
of Up Spirits !
June 25th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Mother of Devine God… seriously is this a wind up???
I’ll allow the duty free thing to go as a bit of humour. Please do one thing, disregard everything the Mr. McGrath has written… it is to say the least utter bollox!
There will be no re negotiation and no associate membership.
Either the Taoiseach does his duty and reports to the EU that the treaty is dead and they go back to basics for further EU reform or he will try ramming the thing back down our throats as is.
June 25th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Yes Mel, I remember with much fondness myself the thrill of buying a box-a whole box!!!-of Heineken in the Duty Free shop on board and then heartily drinking them all on the way over to wherever it was we were going. Drinking out on deck with the wind blowing, the salty sea spray and beer taste combining nicely on the tongue or, in bad weather, drinking down below and going in later to the bar for some more cheap beer and craic. There used to be characters in the bars back then. I loved stormy crossing after a few cans; everyone feeling sick and me dancing away with the boat rocking to and fro.
Ah yes, nostalgia isn’t what it used to be.
And I remember when the staff on said Irish Ferries were, guess what-Irish! And the money you used to have to use back then to pay for your duty free, ah Jayzus, wait for this-Irish pounds-’punts’ they used to call them! And the only Pole in Ireland was JP2. I know, it all sounds so ridiculously quaint now but that’s the way it was back then.
Associate membership, it sounds so reassuring doesn’t it? A pleasing pattern of syllables resonant with self-belief and dignity. If you say it slowly enough with a French accent it even sounds sexy. Go on Dave, say it. Say it to yourself, slowly at first, but then when you feel you’re strong enough for it shout it out loud. Scream it from the steeples. Get your whole family together and roar it out with pride! Run together with Michael, hand in hand, through the meadows and dales of Ireland, singing it out in harmony; two blithe souls together, the two of you free, free, free!
June 26th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Martin, I think you’re smoking what Dave accuses me of smoking, can I have some please ?
Crossings, about sixty of them, one memorable one commenced when no less than five stalwarts of the Merseyside Constabulary hoisted me aboard and demanded of the Captain that he place me in the brig for the entire journey across ! Though shaken at this prospect, I managed to snap to attention and give the Captain a salute that would leave the RSM of the Irish Guards gasping in admiration. It worked, the Captain told the Constabulary that the Brig was a really nasty place on stormy seas, told them to get off his ship (a good Dublinman, bless him), asking me if I would give him my word of honour that I would remain in the lounge at the bar for the voyage across, of course I accepted his invitation with alacrity. In the bar, yes you do meet up with some amazing characters, this time I bumped into a sharp looking Sligo man who kept asking me anxiously if we were outside the three-mile limit, I finally checked, and when I could confirm to him that, yes, we were, what a look of total relief passed across his worried brow and he called for drinks the whole way over, as happy as a man who had just escaped from Dachau !
June 26th, 2008 at 6:53 am
Afterwards I passed out on the floor of the lounge. I came back into the world wondering where I was – the place was empty. Then I heard Radio Eireann, and realised, F*** it, I’m back in Dublin. Everyone was gone, not a soul in sight at 8.20 in the morning. I walked through the customs hut, not a sinner there either, walked along North Wall, nobody anywhere, finally begged a lift into Dublin city centre and headed for an Early Opener I knew, and there was your man from Sligo !!!
It was June 24th, 1975.
Martin your writing about Associate Membership is inspirational, poetic, copies to those good-looking fellows Tricky Dick Roche, Barroso, Cowen etc., I guarantee you, Barroso will jump at the chance to get rid of us.
June 26th, 2008 at 8:09 am
O superb literary imagery Martin!
I can just see the pair of them dancing through meadows surrounded by multi coloured Butterfly s the Sun shining brightly as harmony reigns.
-
I was just talking with Her who likes to be Obeyed over morning coffee, we were discussing the merits positive and negative of being in the EU. Her observation being that greyness is becoming the norm, gone is the humour and the bright wit that was a recognisable national Irish characteristic.
Laws that are made in Brussels might fit well for the Germanic character and in other lands fit not at all. For Centralisation does not allow individuals to have their own quirks.
The danger to our national psychology, is that of mundane sameness; leading to the use of mass escape via illegal drugs to block out life’s blandness.
This eventual epidemic has already started, Prosac for some medical card holders and Cocaine for some salaried staff!
So we need to keep our wits about us and use well our creative imagination!
June 26th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
You put your finger on it there Mel when you said, ‘So we need to keep our wits about us and use well our creative imagination!’ Those Eurocrats don’t have any imagination, they’re a dull, functional, emotionless bunch. They accept orders, justify their existences through ‘work’ and then when they get a little higher up the food chain they start giving orders and the cycle repeats itself. I know this fella who’s learning how to be a Eurocrat in a college in Maastricht-yes they have a Eurocrat Academy- and God is he dull!
It could be the landscape that imparts this dreariness to the North European psyche, the vast flat, boring plain that stretches from Belgium all the way through Russia. Or it could be the climate, here we get variety of weather in every day, there things don’t change so quickly. Whatever the reasons the bottom line is that the cliches are true and they’re not much craic and we’d be much better off without the whole showering lot of them.
Let them off. If they want to play superstate politics, let them at it. We can stick to the things we’re good at like being decent, humorous, literary, sporting, freedom loving people who appreciate the ironies of human existence and don’t rush about through life with blinkered vision trying to out-bitch everyone else we meet, jostling and elbowing our ways through each dog-eat-dog day. Ok, maybe we can take on board some of the better things they do like French cooking but other than that, what have the Europeans ever done for us, eh?
Michael, nothing smoked here I’m afraid. Drugs is for mugs, but odd isn’t it that when you come up with an original idea Dave automatically assumes you’ve been taking drugs. Why? It’s called originality Dave and doesn’t necessarily have it’s source in mind altering substances. But that’s the point Dave, you don’t show any originality in anything you say, you follow the party line regardless. I could have a word with that friend in Maastricht for you, might be able to get you a start, you show all the necessary attributes….
July 2nd, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Here’s more of it:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mep-sinnott-attacks-abusive-tv-quizzing-in-expenses-probe-1425236.html
Frank, how can I put a link up without all this cut and paste mess?
July 2nd, 2008 at 3:34 pm
I believe it makes total sense for the prosperity of Ireland, to have our sovereignty and freedom back 100%, and more than ever now as we face into recession.
EU Associate membership is all we need to get right back on track economically. Martin, thanks, I am well used to puerile jibes, but the situation that Ireland is in right this moment is far too serious a matter for tossing jibes about.
I hope Dave remembers that when he goes for election, as I think that’s what he’s doing and the very best of luck to him. Me, I think of selfless self-sacrificing martyrs like Patrick Pearse who fought for the freedom of Ireland, and I think of people who want to screw as much money out of Ireland and the EU as they can, and I wonder do both sorts of people belong to the same human race ? BTW the British Brigadier-General who sentenced Patrick Pearse to death by shooting, Brigadier General Blackader, afterwards remarked that he was sorry to have had to do it as Pearse was one of the nicest people he had ever met !
Tom Clarke turned to the wall and cried when Pearse announced his decision to surrender. Look, we all only have so long, basically we’re all just lined up in a queue for the graveyard or the burning unit, so I am absolutely puzzled about this massive greed for money and property. At the end all the property we’ll need is a box. It’s as simple as that. The one thing we can do while we’re here is to do all we can for our people and our country – I can see why Pearse and his men made their decision for martyrdom, it’s over in a jiffy too !
We can now seek Associate Membership and our Government can negotiate it at the October Meeting when they report back to the EU, and we can become Associate Members as soon as January 1st 2009. This recession will be over in 12 months if we do it, and the Tiger will be back on track in another 12 months.
BTW one soldier in the firing squad dropped his rifle in the Stonebreakers Yard in Kilmainham Jail as Patrick Pearse stood to attention there, against the wall, blindfolded, waiting for the shot to come, as the Officer commanded “Aim”., The order FIRE didn’t come and Pearse didn’t even flinch ! He just stood there statue-like without murmur. The soldier picked up his rifle, got back into firing position with the rest of the squad, and the Officer commanded AIM again, then FIRE !
Let’s keep that picture in mind before we sell out the country and the people he freed with his blood.
“They have bought half of us, and intimidated the rest ! “
July 2nd, 2008 at 6:30 pm
I hear what your saying Michael; your message is apt if not new,’For what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul.’
Human conciousness is all to easy to mould, the older I become the more I realise this. The values propounded today in general are pernicious and unsustainable. At best no-one today is looking after the interests of the coming generations; at worst every degradation of integrity at an individual or national level has been carefully thought out and executed with the express aim of ruining civilisation.
Why can’t people just tell the truth about themselves and life? I don’t know, but as I said it isn’t a new story. There’s always been prophets, patriots and poets proclaiming their own versions on the same theme. The thing is today it seems everyone has been as you say either bought off or intimidated. Well not quite everyone, eh?
And I’m with you on the Associate Membership thing. I saw yesterday the Polish president saying there was no validity in the Lisbon Treaty any more in light of the Irish vote. The more time that passes, the more convinced I am that the No vote was not only right but necessary. We were dead right to say No.
As for the economy, sure that’ll pick up too. This country has been through famine, occupation, revolution and war and now people are worried about their house prices! But we need statesmen and women; people with vision, integrity and a love of life and homeland. Alas, all have are career politicians it seems.
Modest means and independence rather than indebtedness and materialism, that’s what I say- that’s what de Valera said too. What is so strange about the notion of self-sufficiency and sovereignty, and comely maidens dancing at the crossroads?
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Though I wouldn’t row in with Dev calling on John Charles every Friday to consult on running the country.
Yes, I agree, with the refusal of Polish president Lech Kaczynski to sign the Treaty, it’s now dead to all intents and purposes.
The Czechs Republic will now in all probability follow the wisdom of the Irish and the decisiveness of the Polish President and blow it straight out of the water.
For the past three weeks we are witnessing a growing national crisis as the will of the people is being scorned in practice and paid lip service in public.
It is unthinkable that they would try to put a hugely rejected Treaty to the Irish People again, it would be foolhardy of them, I can’t figure out their thinking at all.
At the very best they could possibly sway a few thousand over, providing they keep the Yes voters, no matter what we would still certainly see a 100,000 No margin. And then it could be the other way and No could easily win again, this time by 200,000.
Then they would be really blamed, and for running a totally unnecessary and costly referendum – a few months before the Local and Euro Elections – that would spell disaster for them as people would vote for the small, even tiny parties and Independents then.
I think they are off their heads to even think of running it again, and if I was one of their professionally paid advisors this is what I would be telling them.
Their only hope would be to have their rerun along with the Locals and Euros, but, no, that still wouldn’t get it through for them – and might even negatively impact their candidates right across the country…
It’s their problem, hehehe
Maybe they could get at the people subliminally over the telly, now that’s what I’d suggest as a handler, certain little unnoticeable flashes during Coronation Street, Eastenders, Emmerdale, Fair City…
Better shut up before they read this , the No Lobby is getting so big and clever on BifSniff they might be scanning !
Sheeeesh
July 3rd, 2008 at 4:27 am
Michael,
What a load of crap… First of all we’ve never been so free! Freedom comes from being able to do what you want with your life and more Irish people can do that now here at home than ever before… Dev and co raped the country with their misguided isolationist policies and now his followers in the soldiers of destiny have started the ball rolling in that direction again.
Voting for or supporting Fianna Fail (the Me Fein Party as I like to call them, MFP for short) is the most un patriotic thing anyone can do! They (FF/MFP) have time and again throughout our short history as an Free State set us back and prevented us from fulfilling our true destiny as a free and independent republic with their short sighted and narrow minded, self serving agendas.
The MFP (FF) are the cause and reason behind all of our problems. Gombeenism and parish pump politics have held back our development time and again… The MFP have always put themselves first as we have seen with the “building boom” of the last few years. They drove up house prices for the ordinary citizen giving tax breaks to the mega rich and their builder friends!
You Sir are not a patriot, you are an ill informed, narrow minded, isolationist, backward thinking, opinionated crank and nothing more.
Pierce and the other fallen of 1916 along with those many thousands who went to France to fight that all small nations might be free, would be sick to their back teeth to see the mess your friends have made of the prosperity the you and your like have squandered over the last few years. Prosperity earned and fought for by today’s patriots the hard working PAYE workers and businessmen of our great nation.
Out there working morning, noon and night to provide for their families and pay their taxes to ensure a quality of life for those who can’t look after themselves… Working to give their kids what they never had, a foreign holiday, a college education… the new Liverpool jersey! And you want to strip them of that for some imaginary “freedom”…
Their hard work pays for the services we need to run this country and if the MFP would stop wasting it we’d be a lot better off… Your imaginary “freedom” based on your idiotic logic could only do one thing… Bring back Dev’s Ireland, of mass emigration, unemployment, poverty, enslavement to the English economy and anything but freedom for the average Irish citizen!!!!
If you had the common sense to join the dots of your muddled thinking you would see that all your suggestions lead to being a province of the UK again, follow their soon to be torry government out of the EU and then realise “holy shit this didn’t work 30 years ago and it doesn’t work now!”
So in conclusion Mr. McGrath, you can write all the rubbish you like here and in the Kilkenny People… anyone with half a brain cell can see that your idea’s are flawed in the extreme. Run off back to the MFP to your cumman meeting and tell them that change is a coming and although it’s wearing a blue shirt it’s heart and soul are green white and gold!!!
July 3rd, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Ah, now we have the real Dave…
Back to Civil War politics now, eh Dave…
Briseann and Duchas tri suile an chait !!!
But, Dave, we are not talking about Fianna Fail here, we are talking about a free and prosperous Ireland and our relationship with Europe, in particular the EU.
And I agree that Fianna Fail has a lot of faults, a Big One called Biffo right now, a fabulous fellow but lost in the Taoiseach’s office.
But bad and all as they are , they are a hundred times better than your Fine Gael option – remember the quid a year rise the old folk got last time you lot were in, you were a disaster, remember the VAT on childrens’ clothes , do I have to go on…
Why is it that Fine Gael in all its time never got the support of the plain people of Ireland -
Of course your bloody roots, the slaughter of the 77 for instance are still well remembered, and people like me make sure that your dark deeds of your past will always be remembered.
You’re just a Tweedle Dee to Fianna Fail, they are and will always be your masters, so I don’t blame you in your posting above about being so nasty and so bitter about it.
In the meantime the Associate Membership that I propose would be a winning policy for Fine Gael, for any partybecause it is an absolutely winning policy for Ireland.
Don’t just knee jerk attack it, look at all the options. That’s what the best politicians do.
I have met Enda Kenny, together with Avril Doyle, I liked them, I like Enda Kenny, but Enda would be an even worse Taoiseach than Brian Cowan.
BTW I am not viciously anti Fine Gael, I have many friends including local councillors here in Kilkenny such as Paul Cuddihy and Betty Manning, former councillors like Carmel Boyd – and above all I’m a great friend of your Phil Hogan TD.
It’s not my fault that they’re in Fine Gael, It is certainly not my fault that you are in it either, so don’t blame me for your woes ! I didn’t push you into joining.
As I say, happy elections Dave, but you would really want to drop the nastiness if you want to get elected – and you are as much entitled as I am to write in the Kilkenny People and contradict me – if you can !!!
There’s the Letters to the Editor feature, just email your letter into editor@kilkennypeople.ie and it will be published next Wednesday.
BTW we fought the Brits just to get them out of here, but I don’t see anything wrong with them now, nor with any of their political parties at Westminister either.
Pearse and Connolly didn’t see anything wrong with the British peoples either. I think the English are a grand people, and that we should and could do a lot more in co-operation with them, why not ? The Scottish and the Welsh are fabulous. And so are the English, come to think of it.
See how British PM Gordon Brown sprang to Ireland’s aid, protesting us from the malicious bastards in Brussels who threaten us -
And as long as we allow people like Barroso and the French foreign minister to threaten us and have a huge say in Ireland’s affairs, we are not free.
BTW, there is no need to call me Mr. McGrath, Michael is my name, OK, Dave ? Thanks.
Cheers, Michael.
July 3rd, 2008 at 8:35 pm
AND, Dave, some of the greatest Gombeen Men were in Fine Gael ! Michae Lowry ???
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Parish Pump Politics, Dave ? Fine Gael are Masters of the Parish Pump, I see it all around me, though, granted, they’re not as good as Fianna fail at it
“New Labour” are a Disaster and a Disgrace. The greatest Gombeen Man of all being Proisias De Rossa, Frank Ross, a right mercenary.
Thanks for all your personal compliments – Patrick Pearse has been described similarly, so I take your outburst and all your name-calling as an honour.
We can go right back to the Free State when your Fine Gael predecessors , the Cummann na nGael Free State Government drove defeated Republics mercilessly into penury and exile in deliberate, brutal and repressive revenge, driving whole Republican familes, men , women and children into hunger and despair, what an evil way for any Government to treat its own citizens !
Patrick Pearse’s mother and his sister Margaret were Fianna Fail TDs and Senator, and Mrs. Pearse always said publicly that, had they lived, her two martyred sons, Patrick and Willie, would have been in Fianna Fail !
We all remember old Cosgrave, the Fine Gael Minister for Hardship, and the Hairshirt, and Richie Ruin and Crew.
BTW I’m a lifelong Everton supporter, so your Liverpool jersey cuts no ice with me, it might come in handy for washing the floor.
Cheers, Michael.
February 23rd, 2009 at 5:30 pm
[...] who regularly visits this site will remember Dave from his posts on here and the debates about the Lisbon Treaty. He will be running for the local elections in June and has posted an excellent guide to [...]
August 8th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Vote No From HabakkukEurope.com.
August 27th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Message about Lisbon treaty:
Lisbon treaty seems to be totally strange and deleting democracy or human rights?
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2008/01/lisbon-treaty-c.html
I’ve read an article which states that police gets rights to shoot people in some situations.
These kind of things are totalitarian politics.
It also probably stops right to go on strike.
http://www.no2lisbon.ie/en/press-centre/entry/160
And all this in whole Europe …
It is sad to notice that all other countries have accepted this treaty, but many governments have not even given people chance to vote about it.
Irish government has given you this right,…anyway it is really strange that Ireland maybe votes again about this, and only after few months?(or 2009?)
EU elite needs this YES, and they have ordered new voting?
If this is true it shows how horrible secret elite rules EU, and what can we expect from the future?
Lisbon treaty is basically giving ‘Gestapo’-laws to EU-government, if needed?
And they seem to need those laws fast?
Vote NO, and save the world?
F.ex. in many european countries media and politicians has almost 100% ignored discussions about this subject, and people are not even aware about whole thing?
It is also good to remember that USA has now similar ‘martial laws’ there, after 11th september 2001… ?
EU security officials decide about all security matters of whole EU?
Also there is some things which makes it very difficult for normal people to complain and get things corrected if there is wrongful handlings?
I hope I am wrong, but this whole thing , and how it has been handled seems really wrong? And it is not a democratic way to handle politics.?
http://www.europeanfoundation.org/docs/Treaty%20of%20Lisbon.htm
ps. this writing may include errors.
-Tore Toivicco
—
Now also EU web-cencorship?
http://www.masternewmedia.org/europe-under-internet-censorship-threat-new-eu-telecom-package/
Give us back our democracy!
—
Besked om Lissabon-traktaten:
Lissabon-traktaten synes at være helt mærkeligt og sletning af demokrati eller menneskerettigheder?
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2008/01/lisbon-treaty-c.html
Jeg har læst en artikel, hvori det hedder, at politiet får ret til at skyde folk i nogle situationer.
Disse slags ting er totalitære politik.
Det sandsynligvis også stopper ret til at gå i strejke.
http://www.no2lisbon.ie/en/press-centre/entry/160
Og alt dette i hele Europa …
Det er trist at bemærke, at alle andre lande har godkendt denne traktat, men mange regeringer har ikke engang givet folk chancen for at stemme om det.
Irske regering har givet dig denne ret, … anyway det er virkelig mærkeligt, at Irland måske stemmer igen om dette, og først efter nogle måneder? (Eller 2009?)
EU-eliten behov denne JA, og de har bestilt nye afstemningssystem?
Hvis dette er sandt, det viser, hvor forfærdelig hemmelighed elite regler EU, og hvad kan vi forvente af fremtiden?
Lissabon-traktat er grundlæggende give ‘Gestapo’-lovgivning til EU-regering, hvis det er nødvendigt?
Og de synes at have behov for disse love hurtigt?
Stemme nej, og redde verden?
Eksempel i mange europæiske lande, medier og politikere har næsten 100% ignoreres diskussioner om dette emne, og folk ikke engang er klar over alt?
Det er også godt at huske på, at USA nu har lignende ‘martial love’ der, efter den 11 september 2001 …?
EU sikringsmedarbejdere beslutte om alle sikkerhedsspørgsmål i hele EU?
Der er også nogle ting, som gør det meget vanskeligt for almindelige mennesker til at klage og få tingene korrigeret, hvis der er ulovlig handlings?
Jeg håber, jeg tager fejl, men det hele, og hvordan den er blevet håndteret synes virkelig galt? Og det er ikke en demokratisk måde at håndtere politik.?
http://www.europeanfoundation.org/docs/Treaty% 20of% 20Lisbon.htm
ps. denne skriftligt kan indeholde fejl.
-Tore Toivicco
–
Kan det blive mere fascistisk?
Nu også EU web-cencorship?
http://www.masternewmedia.org/europe-under-internet-censorship-threat-new-eu-telecom-package/
Giv os vores demokrati tilbage!
by-
tore toivicco
September 9th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Tore ! Tore ! Tore ! ( to misquote the Jap Zero’s ) , Banzai, here we go again, Lisbon Mark 11 .
Whatever became of Dave ? I hope he got elected in June for Fine Gael, he was one of the best debaters the Yes side had last year, not just on here, but anywhere !
I’m voting NO Again
Sadly we’re without Declan Ganley this time round, the man was accused without the slightest proof being offered, of being an American Agent Provocateur, out to obliterate the E.U.
Yes we’ll miss Declan and above all his money – of which I believe he has to date poured 8 millions into the NO TO LISBON Cause .
But who knows, maybe we’ll see Declan speak out against this Lisbon Treaty Mark 11 ?
I think that his ability as a speaker was better than all the millions he lost fighting on behalf of his native country, Ireland, and our right to be Free and Democratic , not subject to the Diktat of the E.U. under Lisbon.
Ah well, a lot has changed since our last gathering here, for the worst with a whole rake of new taxes and cuts on the horizon under the lousiest Taoiseach and Giovernment that Ireland has ever had – Roche , every time he shows his face and opens his mouth he loses the Yes side a thousand votes.
Harney, the very one who brought a half a million immigrants in here , saying that we wouldn’t have enough workerss, and she’s still at the Cabibet table, I can’t believe it !
And now we;re also paying 80,000 of those immigrants the full dole and Rent Allowances costing us a couple of Billion a year that is mostly flowing out of the country to the banks of the Oder, now even crossing the Oder-Niesse Line, and they expect us to vote Yes to that ?
No wonder the Polish President of the European Parliament could come over here to Ireland the other day and beg us to vote Yes – while the Polish Government is laughing all the way to the bank with their share of the Home Remittances from Ireland !!!
And this carry On will surely drown Ireland if the banks and the Recession don’t first .
Friends, we therefore have no other option but to vote No if only to put Brussels on notice that Ireland is not going to die on its feet at their Diktat without a fight !
We now have more cause than ever to Vote No , especially if we don’t want this country to end up as Little Poland – so much for the Polish E.U. President …
And only last week the Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi told the E.U. to have a run and a jump or he will put a spoke in their wheel, just because they had the gall to question Italy’s anti-immigration policy WHILE the Irish Government grovels to the E.U. – Cowen doesn’t even have the guts of Berlusconi
But, seriously, friends, this rerun of Lisbon is forced on us at a time of crisis when we can well do without this charade, especially as this Lisbon Referendum brings a treaty right into the midst of the Recession, and yet another futile referendum that is gone stale, to the People of Ireland, a Lisbon Treaty that does not have one word in it dealing with this Recession because this Lisbon Treaty is at least four years old !!!
And worse still we are not even being bribed by Brussels to pass it, not a cent, in fact it is costing us millions to run this Referendum that we can ill-afford right now – and for what ?
For what, you might ask, to vote in the same treaty that we voted out last year, that’s what !
Rather we are being intimidated to vote for it. And we know what the Irish People have done historically to those who come and seek to intimidate us .
And what if we vote for Lisbon, what then ? Well we don’t have to guess any more, more new taxes , more savage cuts, more cuts in Public Service pay, that’s what – plus a huge gamble on NAMA ( that’s a different subject, but it’s a gamble that may well pay off for us, I see some hope in NAMA though I have never been a gambler in my life ) .
I see some hope in Brian Lenihan, who would definitely take over from Cowan as Taoiseach as a result of a No Vote to Lisbon, and that’s the best we can get out of this looming referendum on October 2nd in a few weeks time . Brian Cowen is a lovely fellow but the very worst Taoiseach this country has ever had. Let’s face it, he should have given up the drink the day he became Taoiseach, he owed the country and himself that – I hate to say this but it has to be said, you can’t govern any country, you can’t really do anything on am alcohol-addled brain. ( I should know, I had to give up the stuff myself seven years ago ) . And that’s why we need Brian Lenihan.
Vote No to Europe and Lenihan will replace Cowan, then at least we’ll have a steady hand on the till at the top.
Our Government, when Cowan was a pedestrian Minister for Finance, allowed and encouraged mass ummigration from EU countries into Ireland. With the UK and Denmark , our government went out of their way to ease the passage of hundreds of thousands from the EU in here, blindly, unthinkingly, and we now know that up to a million foreign workers arrived looking for employment here ( C.S.O. ) . According to Minister Brian Lenihan this helped to cause the crash. Now overseas workers make up 20 per cent of the unemployed, with Full Dole, Rent Allowances, Childrens Allowances, houses and hospital beds going to them ( another reason our health services are crashing ! ) . Result: Billions !!! And half of all that money leaving Ireland, draining the lifeblood out of us and our country, in Home Remiitances to Eastern European countries.
But don’t blame these immigrant workers : This is the fault of our politicians of the Three Big Parties for Lisbon who put the EU, and their friends in high finance and big business ahead of you .
And now they are set to make matters even worse. Lisbon hands full control over immigration and asylum policy to the EU under article 79 of the Lisbon Treaty – even when workers are flooding in here from outside the EU, and they still are !
That means that under Lisbon it is the EU that will decide who can come to Ireland, and how many, and it doesn’t matter how that affects us or drives down our economy even more, down into the Pits
Thanks to our self-serving politicians of the three main Dail parties, the economy is in tatters. They have crashed the country and now we are the ones about to suffer.
Almost 450,000 people are now unemployed. We’re being crushed by cuts and now to be even crushed more by new taxes .
And now those very same politicians who brought about this crash want us to trust them on Lisbon, NO WAY !
As you can see, Lisbon is the last thing our battered country needs as Ireland is now being used by Brussels as the Dumping Ground of Europe .
Yes campaigners intimidate the people , but the bald fact is that there is NO money in the Lisbon Treaty for Ireland. Countries like Spain who have approved Lisbon now have unemployment rates of 18 per cent .
NOTHING in this Lisbon treaty will help us recover. It’s all about transferring our powers, of our Courts in particular, to Europe – not a thing in it about helping Ireland, but rather planning to use us as a Dumping Ground for their citizens that they don’t want !!!
The facts remain : We are still a member of the EU without Lisbon, we can’t be thrown out; We still have access to ALL European markets; We can STILL borrow from EU banks !!!
And even worse, under Lisbon we will lose our special Corporation Tax rate that France wants to abolish, and thus lose another score of our top multinational companies with , perhaps, another 100, 000 unemployed here. This alone should cause everybody to Vote No to Lisbon, it’s turkeys voting for Xmas, it really is .
Commissioner Charlie mcCreevy, as well as the French Government, have revealed EU plans to take control of taxation ( Irish Independent, 12.05.07 ) .
This would, together with the mass immigration, be a disaster for Ireland. We can’t afford to lose more jobs because of this Lisbon Political Stupidity . We need to control our tax rates, and keep jobs here, before the country goes absolutely and totally bankrupt .
( Lisbon will not aid the Recession and is, in fact, likely to make it worse ” – Professor Ray Kinsella, UCD, leading Irish economist ) .
The Lisbon Treaty also gives Big Business the right to import cheap labour and undercut Irish workers.
This is because it copperfastens EU Court Rulings like LAVAL which said that companies could bring migrant workers to Ireland and pay them a rockbottom wage, and this comes at a time when our government wants to cut the minimum wage.
Ireland is under huge pressure from the EU to reduce public spending ( Minister Eamon Ryan, RTE 12.07.09 – and this fact stated by a Cabinet Minister out of Cabinet shows coldly and brutally that the passing of the Lisbon treaty will not benefit Ireland by a red cent but that rather the EU wants to cut us !!!
” The availability of cheap labour after 2004 was a factor as well ” – Minister Brian Lenihan on what caused the Recession, 25.06.2009 . There you have it all, from the Deputy Horse’s mouth !
LESS POWER FOR IRELAND : The EU is meant to be an economic Union of EQUAL States. But Lisbon automatically changes that, by stripping power from small countries like Ireland.
In fact while Germany DOUBLES her voting power to 17 % , we halve ours – to a pathetic 0.8 % . We also lose the right to veto harmful measures in over 60 areas. How does this put us at the heart of Europe ?
The Lisbon Treaty is actually a New Constitution for the EU – and it will be superior to our own Irish Constitution concerning Ireland. It’s like handing over the deeds of your house : a Yes Vote means that you lose ownership of your constitutional rights, and we lose our power in the EU and become weak and isolated.
For God’s sake, for Ireland’s sakke, Vote No on October 2nd .
Thank You,
Michael
( Kilkenny City ) .
September 16th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
‘We must not vote in fear’ says Ganley
By Declan Ganley
The funny thing about the re-vote on the Lisbon Treaty is that nobody seems to want to talk about what’s actually in the Treaty we’re being asked to sign – but there is a lot of talk about things that are not in the Treaty at all.
Every lamppost is littered with the lie that Lisbon will somehow create, or save jobs. It will not. It has nothing to do with jobs, and the only job a “yes” vote will save is Brian Cowen’s.
There is no article in the Treaty about jobs. In fact, the Wall Street Journal, the bible of corporate America, has said that the Irish would “save civilisation” by voting No.
Think about that, the next time you hear a politician tell you this is about jobs. Who do American Investors listen to, Dick Roche, or the Wall Street Journal?
Our politicians want us to believe that Lisbon is connected to the mess they have made of our economy. It suits them. They want to present this debate as a choice between people who are for and against the economy, which is almost funny, given how they have managed it.
No, the real choice is between fear and hope. We already know that Lisbon will not affect our place in Europe.
Dick Roche said it himself after the last referendum, but he would rather you forgot that. Charlie McCreevy says so too. So do all our European partners. And we know they are right.
The only people who have talked about us getting kicked out are our own Government.
Lisbon is not about being in or out of Europe, and those of our politicians who say otherwise are just hoping that the Irish people have lost the ability to think for themselves.
No. Lisbon is about the Ireland we want to leave to our children.
Do we want to look them in the eye and say that we listened to our politicians and handed over 60 areas of sovereignty to Brussels because we were scared by our own Government?
Do we want to tell them that we voted for a European President to run the whole EU without any idea who it would be or what they would do?
Do we want to tell them that we told our politicians it was ok to ignore us, berate us, and insult us for making a decision that did not suit them?
This Treaty has not one single thing that will make life better for you or your family. Not one. It has many things that will make life easier for your politicians.
It makes it harder for you to influence them. It creates more positions for them to hold in Brussels. It gives them more chances to blame “Europe” every time they do something that is deeply unpopular here at home.
So before you vote, sit down and think. Whose job does a “yes” vote save? Why do politicians love this Treaty so much?
Why do they keep saying how much they respect you, but keep asking you to vote twice on everything you say “no” to?
Why do they talk about what other people say about Lisbon, and never what is actually in Lisbon? What is in Lisbon for you, or your family?
If you think, I don’t need to answer those questions for you.
You’ll know already what you should do with your pencil on voting day – say a quiet, but very firm, NO. Because like our parents before us, we aren’t fools.
September 22nd, 2009 at 11:21 pm
I’m moving between yes & no- I think that type of discourse is healthy for now…but since I’ve just found this, I’m putting it here…some interesting points for the definite no voters…
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/truth-about-european-constitution-now-called-lisbon-treaty
September 23rd, 2009 at 12:03 am
And this rather worrying, and espionage-type article http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4969353.ece
September 23rd, 2009 at 12:04 am
Check out this, Frank:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4969353.ece
September 23rd, 2009 at 11:14 am
This post was in reference to Lisbon first time around, but to be honest not a whole lot has changed.
Those links are incredible, thanks Kate!
September 24th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Re: An invitation to all EU nationals from all EU countries to come to protest in 30thSep2009 NO Vote Lisbon Treaty Mass meeting.
Dear All,
May I suggest another suggestion please? With regards to the 30thSep2009 No Vote mass meeting for all No Vote people.
Can you please include in your No Vote Campaigns, An invitation to all EU nationals from all EU countries who believe in their democratic rights to Vote in the Lisbon Treaty, to come and protest to the Irish Government and Irish people here in Ireland together with their National flags for a NO Vote to the Lisbon Treaty voting in Ireland for the 30thSep 2009 No Vote mass meeting at 2pm at Garden of Remembrance?
Please pass suggestion to all No Vote parties campaigners.
Kind Regards
Christopher Sciberras
Maltese Opposition Presidential Candidate.
LISBON TREATY REFERENDUM
IRISH VOTING: 2008/2009
Italy’s Guliano Amato former vice President of the convention that drafted the EU Constitution said that EU leaders deliberately made the treaty unreadable so that the changes would be less noticeable therefore side stepping demands for further referendums.
The EU Commission deceived and lied to the EU people including the Irish people for years by promoting the EU Charter of Fundamental Human Rights while the EU’s Nazi style police forces of the Dutch, German, Maltese, Irish, Belgium and other EU states were carrying out secret police operations together with Europol to cause the sexual abuse, rape of women and children, to torture people, to harass and cause friction between people practicing their religion, to destroy families and their businesses, to sabotage & destroy people’s jobs & studies in order to cause the death of EU Parliament candidates, police families and members of the public. The EU Commission knowingly for years of these crimes, deliberately ignored the victim’s complaints against the mentioned governments, ignored complaints about the Corrupt EU Courts whom by criminal negligence refused the victims’ rights to seek criminal justice and left EU government paid criminals to continue with their destructive operations to destroy & murder innocent people. These secret police criminal operations are being ordered and Funded by the EU, using millions of tax payer’s money for more than 12 years. These crimes go totally against the Geneva Convention and The EU Charter of Fundamental Human Rights since they are indictable offences set to destroy families & Business.
The EU has also issued directives for the privatisation and funding cut backs in the Health, Education, Social services, Transport and Criminal Courts Sectors though out EU states, causing a large number of deaths including large number of suicides as a direct result of Financial cut backs and past Privatisation planning in these sectors, which is clearly against the Geneva Convention and The EU Charter of Fundamental Human Rights Treaty. In Hitler’s Germany and his European concentration camps systems, people were deprived of their basic needs for justice, food, health, education and social needs in order to cause suicide and deaths, which is clearly murdering people. These Hitler style crime systems have been employed by the EU throughout the EU right up to this day. There is no hope of stopping these crimes unless the EU courts recognize these crimes.
The EU Courts and the State Courts including the Irish Courts are continuously denying victims of EU government indictable crimes their rights to seek criminal justice, thus allowing convicted rapist criminals to walk out of the courts without any jail terms what so ever and handing out light jail terms for execution murders thus causing a major rise in crimes as can be seen in Ireland today. The EU police are refusing to take statements from the raped victims about their attackers. The EU police and MEP criminals have complete immunity from criminal prosecution as per Article 276, Article 434 drafted in the EU constitution, which is against the Geneva Convention. This proves that the EU is set to destroy & murder people and the fact that the EU Courts deliberately ignore indictable victim’s crimes complaints is further testament today that the EU is a new form of Nazi EU as it was in Nazi Germany prior to the outbreak of the II World War.
The EU is promoting Economic Reforms to its people, while secret systematic Human Rights crimes are being committed and funded by the EU. This is no different to the way Hitler gained power, by promising people Economic and social reforms, than Hitler’s government promoted crimes systems, were German government criminals like doctors, police and military people were destroying and murdering people with full immunity from criminal prosecution from the justice systems, which is exactly what has been happening throughout the EU up to today. EU people are being told of Economic benefits of the Lisbon Treaty when major services bills shot up already, EU Privatisation will cost tax payers 30% to 40% more on top of their present taxes, which already cover these public services, so business can make profit while these services will get worse because profit is put before people, just like the UK train services were numerous accidents were caused as a result of privatisation.
If you vote yes, the Lisbon Treaty will take away what’s left of our Fundamental Human Rights. Approval of the Lisbon Treaty will give the EU a new form Nazi power, which Hitler possessed in Germany. Today in the EU the German and Dutch criminal governments have not given up their Nazi crimes being committed by their police forces which are based on the Nazi systems, despite the criminal complaints filed against these governments by victims who are repeatedly refused their rights to seek justice and ignored. As a result of EU laws & justice systems designed to deny the victims of indictable crimes their rights to seek justice, these crimes are set to get worse with a possible outbreak of a Nuclear Arms race leading to a possible nuclear war, since in the Lisbon Treaty there is a mandate to promote Nuclear energy, a mandate to give the German government double the EU voting power while Irelands vote is halved if the Lisbon Treaty is passed. Germany was responsible for the I World War & II World War, killing millions of people & is given more voting power in the Lisbon Treaty, so they can continue with their criminal operations in the EU while Neutral Ireland & other Countries destroyed by Germany in the World Wars are given less votes and halving what they already have. The Lisbon Treaty is an outright Disgrace to Human Rights and it goes against the Geneva Convention. That is why 95% of the Lisbon Treaty was already voted out by the Dutch and French people in the EU constitution. If the Lisbon Treaty is voted a yes, it will be illegal because 95% of it was already voted out in the EU constitution by Dutch & French voters.
Voting Yes for the Lisbon Treaty will:
1: remove further EU referendums, just like all other EU states were illegally refused the right to a referendum for the Lisbon Treaty. Since the Irish Court order issued for a Referendum to be held on the Lisbon Treaty, this is a case law for the rest of the EU. Therefore all EU states have their right for a referendum. But Brussels turned its back from a democratic referendum for neutral EU states. Vote NO to Undemocratic Europe.
2: transfer managing power to Brussels will render the states powerless. Together with a Nuclear Mandate promotion in the Lisbon Treaty, managed by the EU government with legal criminal immunity, whom couldn’t care less about Human rights crimes, will lead to more Nuclear Reactors in your back yards thus leading to a new Nuclear arms race between the East & West Europe and possible a Nuclear War. Vote NO to War.
3: alter & deny Charter of Fundamental Human Rights to EU and non EU citizens. Vote NO to Indictable EU crimes.
4: take workers rights away. Hitler gave the Unions power and then the next day he abolished the Unions. Vote NO.
5: gives the EU Council chaired by Dutch & German Gov. the right to amend any provision in the Lisbon Treaty in article I.56 without referendums. What is presently in the Lisbon Treaty can be easily changed without referendum. Vote NO.
6: gives new powers to EU police & EU justice to destroy people and block any form of justice for victims. Vote NO .
7: give unelected EU officials more centralized power to wage war & conscript all EU citizens. Vote NO.
8: give more tax power to the EU Government to tax Ireland, millions of Euros in hidden tax fines. Vote NO to EU Taxes.
The Lisbon Treaty is a Treaty that will not allow anymore referendums and take the democratic rights away from the people. This Treaty is the most dangerous document since the II World War and will officially transform the EU into a New Nazi undemocratic power whose officials will have criminal immunity to commit crimes against innocent people. The EU crimes being committed by EU officials and the denial of Justice to EU victims, proves that today the EU is a Nazi Europe. I Voted Yes to the EU joining Referendum because I agreed to the Fundamental Rights and Justice. The EU people are being destroyed while being deprived justice by the EU government. It is the clear intention of the EU to continue to spend millions of Euros to destroy people and give criminal immunity to those who are committing such crimes in the Lisbon Treaty. Therefore I ask the Irish people to stop this Nazi madness and Vote NO to the Lisbon Treaty in respect of millions of EU people who have been denied their right to vote.
VOTE NO: TO A NAZI STYLE UNDEMOCRATIC EU. VOTE NO: TO AN UNELECTED CENTRALIZED EU CRIMINAL GOVERNMENT. VOTE NO: TO HUMAN RIGHTS CRIMES & DENIAL OF JUSTICE. VOTE NO: TO THE LISBON TREATY.
Kind Regards
Christopher Sciberras
Maltese Opposition Presidential Candidate.
September 25th, 2009 at 11:19 am
this is my first ever blog!! all this talk about ireland keeping its commissioner is crazy. the fact is that the european commission is an independent body and throughout its 5 year term of office, commissioners must remain independent of the governments of the member states AND the council of ministers. so why such a big deal about voting yes to keep our commissioner?it wont effect us one bit. The yes side again trying to fool the people. if the treaty is more democratic then europe would’ve taken no for an answer the first time! all big business reps advocate yes! why? not for us workers thats for sure! michael o leary has been promised aer lingus if the treaty passes. Intel has been promised the 1 billion it is owed by europe. siptu and ictu say yes, but their 300,000 grand a year leaders dont represent workers anymore( 5 of the last 7 heads of the top unions went on to become government consulants). finally, we owe it to all the europeans who wern’t allowed to have their say. save ireland, europe, and democracy by voting NO
September 25th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
No side are a mismash of extremists with their own agenda. Sinners, extreme left and right. Who have always been on the margins of Irish life, but who claim to be “fighting our cause” using simple distortion of the facts by using scare tactics. Its weird but those who these people claim to support “the working people” need a Yes vote to go through more than ever. When will people get it there is a core group in this counrty who are against everything and for nothing. If it wasnt Lisbon on this site, Its NAMA on the other. Its easy to be against something and not offer any solutions. I note there is litte discussion about this. There are many sites which blow the no side arguments completly out of the water(particulary what they are peddling on their posters). I would urge those undecided to search for these. VOTE YES for gods sake. Dont let these people think they repesent the views of ordinary Irish people. This Lisbon treaty is not about this current government RUBBISH AS IT IS! Please note all the main parties are in favour. Please VOTE yes
October 1st, 2009 at 11:55 am
everybody please vote no no no we said no once that should have been enough for cowen and his gang they work for us so dont be bullied
October 1st, 2009 at 11:59 am
once is enough to say no a yes vote is only to please cowen and his bandits and be totally governed by eu bullies germany etc.
October 1st, 2009 at 12:11 pm
no no to another referendum to say no once is enough for cowen .if hitler was still alive he would be grinning ear to ear as this is what he wanted for german control of europe.
October 1st, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Get the No Vote out tomorrow, that’s the main thing now. Make sure all your family, relations, friends, neighbours and acquaintances get out to vote No tomorrow, call around them all now to ensure that they do .
Then all we can do is hopo for the best, for Ireland .
Cheers,
Michael .
October 2nd, 2009 at 11:50 am
This is an urgent call from the rest of the free Europe and from Germany:
For the freedom of opinion, for the free people in Europe and for the freedom of the citizens:
YOU must vote — NO — about the Lisbon Treaty again!
Our politicans just take us as hostages for there eagerness for power!
Our thankfulness would be always with you and your beautiful country and, for sure, you do the right thing!
Please inform all your friends to do the same in the poll on Friday for Europe!
October 2nd, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Lisbon will destroy, not save, workers rights
http://europeanjournal.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/09/ireland-lisbon-will-destroy-not-save-workers-rights.html
NO RIGHT TO STRIKE
http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/29764
vote no- save democracy and stop police state EU-sovjet union.
http://www.voteno.ie/
October 2nd, 2009 at 2:07 pm
http://www.voteno.ie/
In the Laval case, the ECJ ruled Swedish unions had breached EU law by forcing a Latvian company employing workers in Sweden to observe local pay agreements, while the verdict in the Viking case suggested unions cannot call a strike against a firm moving its employment from one member state to another in order to lower wages :
http://www.poptel.org.uk/against-eurofederalism/d108glbl.html
October 6th, 2009 at 10:51 am
I strongly believe that the yes vote will help the country get back on its feet and that the EU will get behind us now for donig so. A no vote would have been a disaster.
October 21st, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Take this post down if you want to but thank goodness the treaty was voted for correctly. YES. If you want to leave the EU, move to the UK and live under their Tory government, you´ll be getting your dream state.
October 21st, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Paul, who are you talking to? Who wants to leave the EU?
October 27th, 2009 at 2:02 am
Harney, the very one who brought a half a million immigrants in here , saying that we wouldn’t have enough workerss, and she’s still at the Cabibet table, I can’t believe it !
And now we;re also paying 80,000 of those immigrants the full dole and Rent Allowances costing us a couple of Billion a year that is mostly flowing out of the country to the banks of the Oder, now even crossing the Oder-Niesse Line, and they expect us to vote Yes to that ?
No wonder the Polish President of the European Parliament could come over here to Ireland the other day and beg us to vote Yes – while the Polish Government is laughing all the way to the bank with their share of the Home Remittances from Ireland !!!
“And this carry On will surely drown Ireland if the banks and the Recession don’t first .
Friends, we therefore have no other option but to vote No if only to put Brussels on notice that Ireland is not going to die on its feet at their Diktat without a fight !
We now have more cause than ever to Vote No , especially if we don’t want this country to end up as Little Poland – so much for the Polish E.U. President …”
Pure racist blether here on your blog. Nick Griffen would love you guys, he has the same views on Europe too. You are aligned with the far left and the far right in your No camp. If you don´t like where we are now, you can head off to England try get them to leave the EU, ask Nick Griffen or the UK Neo-cons if they´ll have you, with the views expressed here BNP would be your best bet.
October 27th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Paul,
your post in reply to mine betrays Hatred, which is worse thann any alleged ‘ racism’ .
My comment was purely on economic grounds considering our present Armaggedon-like economic situation here in Ireland – nothing to do with race, no ‘ racism’ against Polish people or Poland expressed
The money isn’t there to pay these all these people pouring in for the welfare, we”ll end up with the IMF taking over, while all you can think of is to spout about ‘ racism ‘ – shame on you!
Cheers,
Michael .
October 27th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
hehehe, looks like Harney, Hubby and a half dozen civil servants had a day out in Las Vegas courtesy of the Government jet !
Racist – the usual taunt, can’t you do any better than sling what has become a meaningless word ?
No amount of insults will change the fact that the Poles etc are bleeding Ireland economically.
BTW No racist remark was made about the Polish people, but if you want to start imagining something that is not there, you have to deal with it !
Or else we will reach the stage where nobody can discuss people from another State here in Ireland without being labelled with this now meaningless jibe ‘ racist’ .
You’re just parrotting, Paul, and failing to see that an economic argument was being put forward concerning our welfare tourists .
A possible solution would be too levy 50 per cent on Western Union who are the ones shovelling the Billions out of Ireland over the past decade to Points East – at enormous rates of profit to themselves .
Cheers,
Michael .
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:19 am
No amount of insults will change the fact that the Poles etc are bleeding Ireland economically.
What is this except racism? Western bloody Union, yea, shovelling billions out of the country… What about the billions pumped into the country by Irish people abroad for the last couple of hundred years? Your arguments are BNP like and racist. I am married to a Polish lady, she has a better education than you I can guarantee that. If you can´t see that this is racism you need help.
Stupid racist Irish people let us all down.
November 3rd, 2009 at 7:17 am
No, it is not racism, there is no remark inferring that the Poles are in any way racially inferior to any other race,.
You obviously utilise the word ‘ racist as a blunt instrument to be hurled unthinkingly at anybody who does not think like you do.
You are going to be very disappointed in life as the vast majority of people do not think like you do, and will certinly not allow your kind to force them to think like you, or say or do as you do.
How do you know that your wiife has a better education that I have, are you some sort of a seer ?
The ” you need help’ “jibe is a patronising one.
As I state and you now confirm, you show real Hatred, an intense and inexplicable hatred.
And who cares what nationality, religion, or colour or creed or belief-system or politics your wife is , or what her education is either, that’s your concern, nobody else’s ..
The Irish people are not racist, and most certainly not stupid, our present government are perhaps stupid for paying all the welfare tourists swarming in here over the past decade.
And get this straight – Ireland does not owe your wife or any of her co-nationals a living ! You doo owe your wife the duty of looking after her, the rest of us doo not owe her anything, or you either by the way you sound, and ungrateful guest of our nation !
Cheers,
Michael .
Nazi, Fascist, Racist etcetc etc now all meaningless insults to be hurled by fools who cannot argue an economoc issue !!!
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:46 pm
And I am hardly racist as a lifelong member of several charities and collecting funds for starving famine-stricken Africa all my life !
I assist African immigrants with housiing and jobs here at home right now.
I also helped Bangladeshi people in relief organisations in London !
You argue from the partticular (your wife) to mass immigration into Ireland ( the general ) in order to smear your opposition as racist .
Re the Irish Abroad, we buiilt England’s motorways on the cheap with our sweat and blood, we built America too
“Stupid racist Irish people “, yeah, what sort of a stupid non sequitur comment is that ? Actually verging on the Racist
We did what we could for Poland and Points East when we were in the Celtic Tiiger era, and we diid it with a heart and a half, some racists !!!
But as they say, Eaten Bread is soon forgotten.
Cheers,
Michael ..
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:57 pm
AND, BTW, I am a Member of the Committee of the Computers For Africa Association. My GP is a Black African Doctor ( He is also a Moohammedan)
I have always felt that every spare cent we have, every spare cent that the EU has, should go to the Third World rather than too Eastern Europe, includiing Poland, which has plenty of food, medicines, clothing, housing and now jobs – Poland is booming !
I would be prepared to make an exception for places like Romania, Bulgaria, the Balkans, and perhaps Hungary, but not for Poland that is better off economically now than Ireland is :–)
Cheers,
Miichael .
November 3rd, 2009 at 4:02 pm
So, Paul, with you and the wife working, I expect a good sizeable contribution to GOAL from you, also the spare computer you have for Africa !
Cheers,
Michael .
November 3rd, 2009 at 4:13 pm
And while you’re at it, Paul, keep your cheque book open and write out a substantial cheque to another good cause of mine, to my pal former Senator Mick Lanigan who runs the Aid for Palestine Organisation – they’ve managed to collect and ship off 150,000 Euros worth of medical supplies to Gaza .
That will be enough for now.
Thanks, Paul.
Michael ..
November 3rd, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Oh, and before I go, Paul, one last thing – I am a Member of the Irish Antii-Apartheid Association since 1965 ( Dublin Branch ) .
Make sure and sort out some of those racist Irish today, but no need to worry, as you say the Irish are stupid anyway :–)
Michael.
November 4th, 2009 at 1:21 am
With all this charity work and fighting for the oppressed where do you get the time to fit in the racism Michael?
Why not do your moral duty quietly instead of wearing your good deeds as a badge and using them as justification to bash the Polish? Were you going around ticking off what cosmo points you have all day yesterday? No matter what good deeds you think you do, your words against the Poles and whoever the etc are, are racist. No side people like yourself, made people vote Yes. That is my point, the people who voted Yes were not hypnotized, they just saw Michael and his mob and didn´t want to be like them. Don´t use the word racist, what else is Pole bashing? Seems it´s not so easy for Michael McGrath and his mob being outed for the racists they are. Like I said Nick Griffen will welcome you with open arms.
November 4th, 2009 at 3:14 am
Paul, this ends here and now..
If you insist on continuing to smear me as racist, despite my lifelong dedication to, and work for, Africa and the Third World, and my quarter of a century fight against Apartheid, then you are not in the real world and it is you that needs help !
I have no ‘ mob’ ,as you allege, I support the democratic decision of the Irish people in voting YES to Lisbon.
What makes you think that I would have anything to do with Nick Griffin and his ilk – from what I hear there are Poles supporting his racist agenda in the U..K. !!! It’s in the British newspapers and TV News.
My argument against the Poles here in Ireland is purely economic, Two Billions a year iin Social Welfare worth of Economic , that’s what, that is dragging this country down with it and exposing us to takeover by the IMF .
If course, as you state your wife is Polish, you obviouly place your own welfare above everybody else in this country, and then pose like being an anti-racist when all the time all you are is being selfish little Paul hiding your greed and your own narrrow self-interest behind well-worn cliches that are meaningless in the midst of the all-out crisis that everybody in this country now faces, thousands upon thousands of people having to make the most heart-rending sacrifices, losing their homes, being thrown on the dole, and now being cut as well because two billions of that money being painfully borrowed by the Irish Government goes to the Poles, but you don”t care any more than they do, you can always, like them, desert the sinking ship of Ireland for booming Poland – yes, you know, you think it like them, you’ve said it here : ” the Irish are stupid ! ”
Just welll-worn shibboleths , aye and smears and slanders too !
And may I remind you that, despite what you allege about the Irish Race, when the Irish went to the USA they did not put their hands out for Dole,, because there was and there is none !
Unlike the Poles here, and that is a straightforward statement of fact, made with no malice at all .
Strange that it is only the one nationality in the world that tours around the welfare hatches of Western Europe, isn’t it
- I wonder why ?
And that is a straightforward question..
Cheers,
Michael
PS: I am a Trinity Alumnus, so every bit as much educated as your wife – am Alumnus of WIT too. And I am a retired Provincial Journalist – and Master Photographer to boot !
And I am a lifelong member of Fianna Fail, I am not a rat that deserts a sinking ship , but I’ll play my part in trying to keep the Good Ship Ireland afloat, to the bitter end.
November 4th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
“PS: I am a Trinity Alumnus, so every bit as much educated as your wife – am Alumnus of WIT too. And I am a retired Provincial Journalist – and Master Photographer to boot !”
Would you like me stand to attention and salute you in the street for your contribution to mankind or because you are a Trinity Alumnus or because you´re with Fianna Fail or because you have a black doctor?
More to the point: Is your view the official view of Fianna Fail or Trinity Alumni, the Poles are bleeding us dry… ?
I am not calling Irish people racists, just you singling out the Poles is racist. If you replaced the Poles with the Jews you´d soon be shut up. What do you suggest we do with these Polish people?
The Poles are even getting a hard time from global warming why don´t you just leave them alone.
November 5th, 2009 at 12:25 am
You stated that the Irish people are stupid racists !
Why should I replace the Poles with the Jews ? There are few, if any, Jews here in Ireland or anywhere else specifically to collect the Dole, Rent Allowances etc., but there are 47,000 Poles here doing so. If there were 47,000 Jews on the Dole here, I would ask the same questions and make the same statements on economic grounds only and therefore could not be ‘ shut up’ as you state, as I would not be making a statement based on racist grounds but on economic grounds, and on grounds vital to the very existence of Ireland as an economic entity.
I asked you a question about why the Poles in particular are satisfied to flock to liberal Western European countries such as Ireland simply to collect the Dole , but you have failed to answer.
No other countries or peoples behave like this, and certainly if I were younger I would not be satisfied to go to a country because it offers a better class of Dole and other welfare payments, I would be seeking a career, to work, to make good, even to make a name for myself, all the things that young people the world over aspire to – nobody but the Poles aspire to the best Dole available, it’s idiotic !
” What do you do for a living ? ”
” I’m a Welfare Tourist ! ”
For the nation that produced a Chopin, this is a terrible comedown, it shows a dreadful lack of enthusiasm for anything in the present-day Polish. Do they not realise that here in the West, and especially in Ireland, the Dole is the last straw, the final humiliation, better only than prison ( slightly ), no prospects, long, perhaps lifelong drudgery and dullness, hopelessness and finally despair.
What would I do to these Polish welfare tourists – I’d make them earn their Dole just like I’d make every other Dole claimant earn their Dole, in National Service ( not necessarily of a military nature), in Community Work, in sweeping the streets, I’d get them up out of bed in the morning and show them that there’s more to life than dossing on the Dole , and that they are expected to contribute to the country by doing something useful, I’d rehabilitate the shirkers amongst them, the unemployable, and make useful European citizens out of them, that’s what I’d do for starters…..
That 47,000 would dwindle fast as they flee to more environmentally friendly climes !
Cheers,
Michael .
November 5th, 2009 at 1:39 am
Ok guys, I’m closing comments on this post because I don’t think this is a constructive discussion.