Lisbon Treaty - Vote No.
May 29th, 2008 by Frank
Unless I am seriously convinced by someone otherwise, I am voting NO to the Lisbon treaty. I have been leaning this way, but I was so suspicious of a lot of the No campaign that I was almost being pushed over to the Yes side.
I’ll be honest, I don’t understand much of all this Lisbon treaty fuss. But what I do know makes me nervous. It may be that I am ill educated on it, but as I said in one of my comments on Daves Vote Yes post, I am not alone - an RTE poll at the end of April showed only 5% of people understood what it was about.
The Lisbon Treaty is obviously significant and important, so it should be reflected in the efforts to educate the public on what they are about to vote on.
Everybody I have spoken to feels that the No campaigners are sensationalist, but the Yes campaigners have not given a compelling reason to vote yes, other than ‘Trust us, we’re politicians, this is good for you’.
To illustrate the kind of thing I’m talking about, Minister for European Affairs Dick Roche was quoted in the irish Times as saying:
“There is no way the Government would have negotiated anything that was detrimental to our interests,”
Oh that’s fine then, let’s all vote Yes.
He goes on to say:
“Ireland’s interests are undoubtedly best served by continued engagement in Europe. There’s no future for us as a standalone nation cut adrift from Europe.”
Is he inferring that a No vote will result in our being cut adrift from Europe? What nonsense. Worse, it’s dangerous scaremongering nonsense.
I’m so sick of being told that we owe it to Europe, let’s not be left behind by Europe, let’s ‘be at the heart of it.’
We ARE at the heart of it. We ARE PART of the EU, stop making it sound like a No vote is a vote to LEAVE. It’s not.
Roche also said:
there was “no benefit” in frustrating the European Union when it is “more or less unanimous” on the treaty.
I find that unanimity hard to believe as far as the public in the EU goes, given that the EU Constitution was abandoned due to the no votes of the French and Dutch people. A bit of shifting of language and bit of manoevering to avoid referendums in most countries and here we are again.
No thank you.
A Yes vote is a vote of confidence that we trust the powers that be that the entire contents of the Lisbon Treaty (and the bits of it that they will make up later) are hunky dorey - it’s a vote of confidence because they have not taken the time to educate the public over a reasonable length of time for something this serious, in my opinion.
That Vote of confidence is hard to give when our Taoiseach had not read the Lisbon Treaty fully despite the fact that getting it passed was his No.1 priority.
I freely admit I am not the most politically up to speed, but this is how I feel. I am open to correction and education in the comments!
May 29th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
This is the only post I will make as I really don’t have the time to read the bed time story version of the treaty to everyone… I have spent quiet a bit of time canvassing for it and even though I have not been posting I have been keeping an eye on what has been written here on Bifsniff.
To be honest I just don’t know what you are looking for- and I don’t mean just you Frank, it is the majority of people out there!- there are a huge amount of websites, the independent commission has put out a leaflet, information is available in libraries and from government agencies, there are booklets, leaflets and hundreds of newspaper column inches… not to mention radio and TV giving it hours of coverage!!!
What the f**K do people want? It’s a complicated legal document there is only so much dumbing down that can be done…. other countries aint getting the chance to vote but we are so whats yer point? Can no one see the irony of that little gem?
Seriously… tell me what you want? The full text of the treaty can be found on several websites, the amendment to the constitution can also be found within seconds of doing a google search… What, what is it?
What more do people want?
There is the treaty, the government and major political parties have stated their cases, the No side have plenty of info out there… Read it and make up your own bloody mind!!!!
There is a chance that if we don’t ratify that the rest of the EU would decide to proceed without us… that would be interesting for us. That is a fact. It is unlikely that they will renegotiate the treaty in any case… what would they do that for? There is no definitive point from the no side on which to renegotiate!!!!
Your vote is not just a right it comes with responsibility… you need to read the info that is out there and make up your mind based on that information and considered though for how you would like to see the country proceeds with regard to the EU.
Incidentally I’m glad that the Taoiseach didn’t waste his time reading the full text of the document… delegation and trust in your advisors are critical for any leader. His time is better spent on more pressing matters (although he’s not doing a very good job of it!
)
May 29th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
What does that tell you? Politicians are working for the people, the politicians have done a really poor job of bringing the public with them on this one. Don’t attack us poor joes over our Governments failings!
And you’re defending this position?
The EU Constitution was abandoned because the French and Dutch voted no, now here it is again (more or less), but only we get to vote this time. That in itself stinks to high heaven. And now you’re telling me that it’s not really a choice anyway, it’s vote yes or we’ll carry on regardless without you?
Is this the real reason FG are in agreement with FF on the Yes campaign? That it would be publicly unpopular but the truth is we have vote Yes or pack our bags? But ssshhh don’t tell the people they don’t like being told what to do… Is this the real reason for the emotional blackmail approach of the Yes campaign?
Er… I have made up my mind based on what I’ve read, that’s why I posted this.
I have watched TV programs and read articles and leaflets, and the whole thing seems to be a farce. Nobody seems to be able to agree on what it actually means for us.
That’s my impression. Anyone with me or am I on my own?
If there was a longer term strategy & debate to educate the people on the wide range of issues affected by this treaty then I might have been swayed… who knows.
But as things stand, having read up on it, I am voting NO and encouraging others to do so until I discover a compelling argument for voting Yes.
I think your attitude to this issue, while more plainly stated, reflects accurately the Governments approach - neither in your post or your comments have you in any way shown why you personally believe that the Lisbon Treaty is a good thing (bar some ill explained bullet points) and yet you’re highly frustrated that any of us would feel we don’t know enough about the true effects of this treaty to vote Yes.
I hope you won’t take any of this personally Dave, but I am somewhat surprised at your view on this, especially given the interesting arguments/conversations we’ve had in the past.
On this one, I don’t hear Dave, I hear Fine Gael.
Maybe we should chat about this over coffee!
May 29th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
@Dave - “other countries aint getting the chance to vote but we are so whats yer point?”
Heh. Funny, because *that* would be my point exactly.
Europe hasn’t voted for this treaty, it’s getting forced upon them. Only Ireland gets the chance to stand up and say that that’s not good enough.
I’m not voting NO for sake of Ireland. I’m voting NO out of respect for the democracy of those other 26 nations.
@Dave - “Can no one see the irony of that little gem?”
Can you?
May 30th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
That poster has made my mind up !….i know it shouldn’t but it has….it defines a lot i love and despise about our country.
The truth is, this is going to happen one way or another, as Emmet said before , we said No already and here we are again.
Therefore initialy I was going to vote yes on the basis it would be cheaper for us in the long run. Then I felt bad and decided the most representative thing I could do was not vote. But…THATS IT that poster is the best thing to come out of the whole debacle !!
May 30th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
[...] Have you seen this: 02/10/2006: Happy Valentine’s Day Massacre… « Lisbon Treaty - Vote No. [...]
June 5th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
PLEASE VOTE YES TO LISBON TREATY,YOU HAVE ALL THE MAIN POLITICAL PARTIES (EXCEPT THE SHINNERS AND OF COURSE JOE HIGGINS GOT HIS ANSWER FROM THE PUBLIC LAST YEAR) THEY ALL CANT BE WRONG AND OF COURSE THEY ARE GIVING US THE CHOICE TO VOTE YES OR NO UNLIKE THE NO CAMPAIGNERS.WE HAVE SIX YES VOTES IN OUR HOUSEHOLD FOUR OF WHICH ARE FIRST AND SECOND TIME VOTERS.THE ONLY THING THAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IN THE YES CAMP IS THAT SILLY ADVERT SHOWING HALF A PERSON………………….
June 6th, 2008 at 1:44 am
I keep seeing busses with Yes to Lisbon on the side and the temptation to hop on board almost overwhelms me - especially when it’s raining. Lisbon is lovely.
the referendum - I’m definitely voting ‘maybe’ - i think
June 6th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
This whole Lisbon Treaty is a fricking bamboozle. There are a few good changes which the Yes people are focusing on and using them like a golden carrot on a stick, but the entire thing amounts to serious curtailment of our existing liberties and paves the way for European militarization. Why are we being asked to vote on changes that wont be fully decided until after the treaty comes into effect? Why would we want to throw out our commissioner? Whats the benefit of letting the European commission decide on which rights of our constitution we’re allowed to retain? Worst of all, why haven’t our politicians read this document? Because its designed to be confusing. Its designed to slip its nefarious policies past us while we focus on that golden carrot and struggle on with our daily toil.
Nice stated that once there were 27 member states there would start to be be less commissioners than states, and that the active commissioners would be selected by rotation. But it also said that it would be fair to all members. Now you could claim that Lisbon honors that in one way since it is an equitable rotation, but it is most definitely not a fair rotation. Five years without a vote? Five years without any possibility of being heard? Do you trust the completely anonymous working groups that set ALL of our laws, in secret meetings I might add, to represent your interests for five years? Remember that these working groups are practically controlled by big business at this point. They are interested in wealth creation for the business sectors that they represent, not in social reform or social justice.
The whole thing stinks of Machiavellian subterfuge and power mongering.
If you are shortsighted and selfish enough to be considernig a YES vote, I but urge you to watch this documentary, End of Nations - EU Takeover & the Lisbon Treaty
2 minute trailer:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2848809142920075643&ei=&hl=en
Full documentary:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4291770489472554607
This is not an Irish issue folks, it’s a human rights issue. Ya, I know I’ll be branded as sensationlist. But watch the movie. You’ll be branded as sensationist too after you’ve seen it and start screaming NO from the roof tops.
June 6th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
The Irish farmer willn win on the double: He has his veto in the bag from Brian Cowen, and now he’ll vote No “just to be sure” !
June 7th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
I’m voting no. I hate Sinn Fein, I hate pro-lifers, I hate Ganley like business men, but most of all- I hate the fact 450 million Europeans dont have a vote!
France turned most of this down in 2004, the Treaty is a worse deal for us. Our voting weight will suffer. As a small fish in a big pond, it is not a good deal for us.
I’m a FF voter. I’ll vote FF in the locals….but this Treaty is not worth a Yes.
VÓTÁIL NÍL
June 11th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
I’m sick of seeing the silly slogans flashed at me from every street-lamp, but has anyone else noticed how few ‘No’ posters remain up?!
Hmmm…
Y’know, we’re still hearing about how the ‘No Campaign’ is usin’ dirty tricks:
The only trickery going on here is a con-game by professional liars pulling a fast one; lying about the Constitution Redux merely being a “tidying-up exercise”, when in fact getting behind this has profound implications and they know it! Let this be a warning to us that concentrating more power in the hands of an unelected, unaccountable Politburo in Brussels (aka the European Commission) is an unwise move.
If they had to lie to us by saying the Treaty was something it’s not, presumably in order to maximise the chance of succeeding in getting it passed into law, this suggests to me that some body calculated that we would not accept it if we knew the facts and registered the true significance what is at stake. The ramifications of giving more power to a body that is out of sight and potentially even further out of reach are staggering…
Think about it: one Governmental and law-making body over 450 million people! Such a concentration of power is surely antithetical to democratic principles? The Lisbon Treaty enshrines EU law above national law. As things stand, the EU makes up to 80% of n ew laws in a massive undertaking to homogenise ever-expanding areas of our lives.
The neo-liberal underpinnings of the EU today are plain to see in its actions. Everyone who has received “the correct training” just knows that the market works best, all public services should be privatised for profit, and competition law should favour the Oligarchs of Industry as they devour all before them. We’ve seen how the beast “naturally developed” from Trade Partnership to European Community to European Union.
Voting Yes on Thursday will vault the whole project into yet another social order - an EU-SSR – as “tip-toe totalitarianism” takes a stride into dangerous territory.
June 12th, 2008 at 12:04 am
Its 11.55pm on the eve of election day and I still dont know which way i’ll vote. Ive been of voting age for 13 years and to be fare I dont always vote mainly because I dont trust the politicians as far as i can throw them.
But with this vote im seriously confused, Ive searched the net looking at both sides of this treaty. Ive even taken a stab at reading the treaty (you’d want to be a super genius to understand it), and as for that pathetic booklet the government sent out…come on get serious it was a load of crap FF.
Ive spoken to others and they just say vote no, vote no but then they cant tell me why other then they dont get it so their voting no. I personally dont think a vote should be made on that basis, but I have the time a The internet while others wouldnt so they will just vote no and be done with it.
Im going to keep reading and go with my gut tomorrow?????
June 12th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
I’d say vote no. As you say you’ve looked around and read the booklet they sent out and still don’t know. If the booklet can’t explain it and you’ve done some research that didn’t provide you with answers then the EU haven’t done enough to explain what they want. I think that’s enough of a reason to vote no.
You should always vote anyway!
June 12th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
[...] Lisbon Treaty - Vote No. [...]
June 13th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Hello I am French
The Irish have voted NO, in European countries throughout the world do not understand why you reject the Eupope?
Many countries and people consider very bad the Irish.
We have a bad opinion of the Irish now.
I watched the news in Ireland or everyone is happy, but nobody shows on TV that many Irish in Ireland are now isolated from Europe.
June 13th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
hi rico, I don’t accept your analysis of the situation. We do not reject Europe we reject the Lisbon Treaty, which is in essence the constitution your country rejected not so long ago. Did you reject Europe? No, you rejected the proposed constitution.
We are not now isolated from Europe, and if we become so because of this referendum then the EU needs to seriously examine it’s understanding of democracy.
June 13th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
I agree with Frank!
June 14th, 2008 at 12:02 am
I agree completley with Frank also… The Irish people were asked to consider the Lisbon Treaty and they went to the polls and decided it was not the way for the EU to proceed.
This is the democratic right of our citizen and they have spoken. I am confident that if we had a vote tomorrow on our membership of the EU we would vote to stay in the EU.
The last time European governments went off doing their own thing we had millions of dead Rico… Would you like to go down that road again?
To be brutally honest Rico if an Irish person tried to tell the French how to run their country or how to vote… or told the French how their vote would be seen in another country then that Irish peron would be told exactly where to go! Your country was at the forefront of the development of modern democracy… why do you mock it now?
June 14th, 2008 at 1:18 am
“France’s Foreign Minister has warned that Ireland will be “the first victim” if voters reject the Lisbon Treaty in this Thursday’s referendum.
In an interview today, Bernard Kouchner says Ireland had benefited more than others from the EU and Europe should be able to count on the Irish for support.
Independant
Valery Giscard d’Estaing in regard to the wording of the Lisbon Treaty
“Public opinion will be led — without knowing it — to adopt the policies we would never dare present to them directly. All the earlier proposals will be in the new text but will be hidden or disguised in some ways.”
I’m sure many are not well briefed on the treaty. That is understandable because the document it is not complete. It is an open document designed to be a catchall. You are not asked to vote on a particular policy you were asked to vote to allow a more remote power to set whatever policy they deem necessary now and in the future. You were asked to vote for less representation of Irish interests and less democratic government. You were asked to vote yes to a treaty that would have the power to override your constitutional rights.
Ireland, not the most politically astute in Europe by any stretch but she knows the smell of a rat. This no vote will not make a blind bit of difference as you will see. However, it is important that history records it nevertheless. As the strains in global markets emerge I do believe we are all going to see the cold iron fist that really sits hidden at the heart of Europe.
June 14th, 2008 at 9:54 am
The referendum on Lisbon Treaty was a democratic exercise undertaken and rejected by Ireland.
We are still part of the EU, our representatives are politically active within it’s administrative structures.
If the EU is unable to accommodate & accept democracy at this time, then there is little point in it’s on going existence. The rule has always been that the acceptance of changes had to be a 100% agreement by all members.
Ireland may now legitimately ask when this golden rule was changed?
June 14th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Thank You Frank for this opportunity to add my view to the others on this Lisbon Treaty … I too Voted No to the proposed ratification of the Treaty… for Many reasons and that is my Democratic Right Like it should have been the Democratic right of all the Eu Countries or should I refer to them as States? I feel… I am also Not going to be Railroaded Into this Lisbon Treaty Because the French , President Mr. Sarkozy says we must still ratify it.. Lets get around the table and Have Transparent and open talks , for that matter Lets have Transparency about the treaty it self. Its all very Hidden agenda to me.. I am sorry I may not have the great education of many but it all smell a little Fishy to me(excuse the pun) Dave I read what you said and frankly It was much ado about nothing… in my humble estimation sorry.
June 14th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Thank God the Irish saw through this white washing of gaining control over our tight and protective Constitution. Would anyone here sign a legal binding document with gaps open to change without your authorisation in the future. I don’t think so. Would anyone here sign a document that would give EU courts more power than their own country’s Supreme court, I don’t think so. I agreed with a lot that was good in the Lisbon Treaty, bring those points back on their own merit and I will happily say yes but leave our hard fought for constitution alone, leave our courts alone.
According to EU law at the minute, this treaty has to be ratified by every one of the 27 countries, we didn’t and yet now our Taoiseach and the EU president are stating it’s not dead, so according to EU, if u don’t do what we say we’ll either ask again or cut u out ,if this is the type of law making and upholding they want us to sign up for I’m out …..
June 14th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
thanks for voting no to the Lisbon treaty from Padania (north italy)!!
June 14th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Thanks everyone for commenting - it’s really interesting to hear from quite a few people who had genuine and well informed concerns which lef them to vote no - especially since our government seem to think it’s because we were worried about ‘conscription, abortion and gay marriage’.
They proved they were out of touch with the people with their campaign and they continue to prove it in the aftermath of the vote.
Interesting times ahead. I hope the EU don’t confirm the fears and doubts this treaty has raised and that we can return to coming up with a better treaty/constitution in a democratic fashion.
June 14th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Mairead,
just so i dont misread what your trying to say… what part of what i wrote was much ado about nothing?
June 14th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Lets be totally honest about the NO vote. It was a mix of disenchanted groups from farmers, fishermen, anti government, frustrated middle class, republican militarists and right wing vested interests. As an Irishman who struggled with making our decision I finally came to the decision by reading fairly straigtforward documentation from our referendum commission. The information was available but I am afraid we have become a lazy electorate. We preferred to listen to the claims and internalise them into our own problems. We deserve to face the consequences of our actions. We pride ourselves on being educated but I believe we showed our ignorance. Confusion won the day because we allowed ourselves to be directed. I believe we deserve to bear the consequences of our inability to grasp fairly straight forward arguments and allowed ourselves to be confused by the NO campaign. Unfortunately the consequence of our action may not be apparent for our own generation but our children will rue this vote. Europe won’t be wagged by the Irish tail. Rightly so. We deserve to be left on the sidelines and we will be - eventually. The NO voters will abdicate responsibility when the consequences unfold. But history will be the final judge.
June 17th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Lets be totally honest about the NO vote. It was a mix of disenchanted groups from farmers, fishermen, anti government, frustrated middle class, republican militarists and right wing vested interests.
Is there anyone u’ve left out of that mix Ignatius, I think u’ve covered most of the electorate there and btw they are all entitled to their vote, stop treating people who voted NO as if they are stupid or have another agenda.
Why if this treaty was so great for everybody didn’t they just put it to a referendum in each country instead of slipping it passed most people without their knowledge because they knew that the people of the EU would say NO.
We don’t want a United States of Europe, we don’t want unelected beaurocrats making laws for us when there’s so little transparency in the EU.
The EU is supposed to be a democracy and even in the lightest possible view of that term the fact that less than 1% of the population of the EU having a voice in this matter is laughable.
Yes history will be the judge and maybe history will record that Ireland once again stood up for itself against bullies and stood up for Europe as well.
June 17th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Ignatius: “As an Irishman who struggled with making our decision I finally came to the decision by reading fairly straigtforward documentation from our referendum commission”
what did you Vote? I don’t think you actually said but from the tone i would assume a Yes vote which is fine(as you are entitled) but You just seemed to harp on for ages about the consequences of the No Vote and how we have become a “lazy electorate” without actually stating reasons why you voted yes. Are we always lazy or just when you don’t get the decision you want? Maybe you belong in a “lisbon treaty Europe” if the documentation was so “straightforward” could you not have broken it down and highlighted your reasons for voting yes/no
June 17th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
I’m with Therese and Mr Heebs on this one Ignatius…
June 17th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Hi Dave…(May 29th, 2008 at 6:10 pm)
I quote You here:
“This is the only post I will make as I really don’t have the time to read the bed time story version of the treaty to everyone”…”I have spent quiet a bit of time canvassing for it…” “To be honest I just don’t know what you are looking for-” “What the f**K do people want?” “Your vote is not just a right it comes with responsibility… you need to read the info that is out there and make up your mind based on that information and considered though for how you would like to see the country proceeds with regard to the EU.” This is all the Much ado about Nothing… YOU..
Who ever asked you to read a Bedtime Story to me or any of the Irish People?? What makes your View Right… We live in a Democracy and so we all in Ireland Got to Vote.. on this Issue which I again say Had no Transparency and is Flawed and so we as a Nation were entitled to vote as they saw fit No… just as it was your Right to vote Yes.
Rico.. This is not an Irish rejection of Europe be assured Just a rejection to the content and lack of content..Lisbon Treaty.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:16 am
In Finland we don’t even have a change to vote! And if we did my vote would have been NO. So thank you for voting for me.
The Finnish media is letting us know that Irish will be “forced” to vote yes some time next year. Or you will be given extra privileges and no voting is not needed. Is this the idea of democratism? “Okay you voted no but we are still going to do it”.
Ireland voted no and we have to respect that!
June 18th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
I think it’s important that we get the message to our politicians that part of the reason for voting no was that other countries should have the right to vote too. It was certainly part of my decision to vote no and it would make me lean towards a no vote if they asked me again (so would the fact they were asking me again though!).
I feel the EU is moving slowly away from democracy!
June 18th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Green party press release via Damien which should interest you…
June 18th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
It’s a start but, eh, didn’t the Green party tell us to vote Yes to Lisbon?
June 18th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Mairead,
I am a member of a political party, the people of the country expect the parties i.e. the members of the parties to inform and educate on issues of national importance especially when it comes to constitutional referenda.
It’s not my fault and frankly I couldn’t give a flying if you can’t see the tongue and cheek nature of my opening line!!!
This post was written out of a huge and over whelming sense of frustration after a lot of canvassing… my view as expressed in this post was that people must take some responsibility for informing themselves. The amount of people who I met while canvassing who admitted that they had not read any of the information that had been sent to the but still felt that the government and political parties hadn’t done enough to inform them about the treaty was incredible.
What is it about my view that you think is not right? What makes my view right is that you probably along with most other sane and rational people would agree with it… but you decided while reading my post that it was a rant supporting the yes vote… where is that in the post? Can you quote that back to me cause I’m fairly certain that this post is about people informing themselves and I don’t advocate either side!
June 18th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
I also voted no to this treaty, athough that decision i can still sleep soundly with. However, what has made me quite disappointed and if im honest very angry is the reaction of other European politicians to our vote and more importantly our governmnets failure to accept that this treaty is dead and should not be put forward to the people again for a re run. Our government should respect our decision and not apologise to their european allies for the irish people.
Although, if this is the case and this treaty is put forward again i have no issues in voting no again as it is a disgrace that the irish are going to be bullied with scare tactics to fall in line or else
Its ironic, the EU are trying to move toward a more democratic structure yet they cannot accept a democratic vote!!!!
June 18th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Katie, I know what you mean. The general tone is very disappointing, even if there has been a wide range of responses.
I was saying in conversation last night that it’s a tricky time, because I honestly believe that there was no ‘Euro-Scepticism’ in the majority of No voters, however the tone now being served to us is in danger of getting a LOT of people’s backs up and potentially resulting in a wave of Euro-Scepticism which could easily have been avoided.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Hello Dave, I was Born and Raised FF… We had Politics for Breakfast Dinner and Tea. in Our House… At election everyone of us would have to and did willingly our Bit for the Good of the Party.. My Parents are now Gone God Rest them and I am Married and Have raised a Family of 6 Wonderful Talented Children. Who have had good educations and They have gone abroad for to experience the world and have some fun, and not because they had too. Ireland Is a wonderful Country and I would not let anyone put it down, It’s by Choice and love I live here and all my Children have come back and are working and helping to make Ireland and Europe a better Place.. What got to me about what you called Tongue and Cheek nature of your opening remark… If that remark was tongue and cheek, I’m a monkey Uncle… to me your opening remarks had Venom in it…( How Dare the Irish People Vote No!!! ) You had worked so hard…!!
I read and watched and Listened to all I could on the Lisbon Treaty and after all I read and heard and had seen I make up my own 49 and Holding Year Old mind and voted with My Conscience…
I do understand your frustration at a lot of the people But not the whole 50%
Question : Why in a previous election did the French and the Dutch Vote no to the Treaty and why weren’t all country not given a chance to vote?? I have had a bad feeling in my Gut for a long while Now. Regarding “My Party” ( but in saying that they are the best of a bad Lot, But I do feel they were so taken up with Bertie Leaving Office and Brian Cowan coming in they lost their way… I’ll say..) I am writing this on my way home from work.. I’m not even sure it makes any sense.. I would like to see a Democratic and Transparent Europe an Policy. Good for all her People , But me thinks we will not get that.. For their are lots of Dictators in the wings. ( Only My Humble Opinion for what its worth LOL )..Sorry Dave If I offened ..Slán
June 18th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
The Eurocrats will not accept the verdict of the Irish People voting in National Referendum -
And they will not accept that the German People should have a Right to Referendum on the EU, how glad Chancellor Angela Merkel is of that, 63 years after Hitler’s death and the collapse of the Third Reich.
They must be afraid of the Centenarians of Germany.
Merkel’s Social Democrats got where they are in Germany by running their own country and their own generation down, and it shows -
your slip is showing, Angela.
Under International Law the Treaty of Lisbon fell on Friday last when one of the high contracting parties, Ireland, voted against.
The situation now is as Nice.
Lisbon is Dead . They can certainly amend it, then they will have to run it through Irish Referendum again.
But under International Law, Lisbon Treaty is now legally dead, and that is binding on the EU and on all 27 Member States including Ireland.
The Irish Prime Minister’s only function is to inform the EU of this, no more than that - and no less than that.
Cowan has his instructions from the Irish People voting in National Referendum, he must carry out those instructions under the Constitution of Ireland under which he holds his Seal of Office.
Otherwise he is guilty of Dereliction of Duty in defiance of the Constitution and may be subject to Impeachment, even arrest to prevent him from acting further against the Constitutution and the Will of the People.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Mairead,
I think I have identified the source of the problem here… I wrote that post on the 29th of May over two weeks before the election… So I stand over the tongue and cheek nature of the comment, although I could with that misunderstanding over the timing of the post why you would think I was talking shite!
As for being born and raised FF… I’m sorry for your troubles
June 18th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Hey Dave I never at any time said you were talking Shiite .. I just felt you were Painting All the No Voters as Morons.. LOL, and that I was not having…hence the “Much a do.”. I knew that would get your gander up…..
Please don’t be sorry for my Trouble..LOL I had a very interesting and Happy Childhood. Never a dull Moment in our Household..:)
June 18th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
I was actually trying to paint all of the electorate as morons!!!! Well at least the ones who refused to do any reading or research for themselves and still insist that the politicians had failed to do their job of informing them!
Honestly it was a very very frustrating few weeks! I’m glad it is over now, I can get back to FF bashing
June 18th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Do One Better, Go stand in the next election.. ??
I don’t believe it’s over !!
June 19th, 2008 at 12:55 am
Deputy Martin Mansergh was spouting on in an empty Dail Chamber yesterday evening about how treaties like Lisbon may not be put for referendum in future,
I wonder would he be pontificating like that if Yes had won ?
and, thinking on it, I believe now more than ever, that most of all the people of Europe who are being trampled over by their national parliaments (just as Martin Mansergh advocates in areas of notorious No voters) are thanking the irish for voting No for them all.
And that’s a good feeling to go to bed with, Oiche Mhaith. - and may Biffo have a rough flight !
June 19th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Michael,
He can spout all he likes but anything that affects our Constitution MUST BE by law of our Supreme court put to the Irish in a referendum. The EU and our government tried their damndest to get around us having a referendum this time but our constitutional law is tight and couldn’t so instead they put it in this referendum that future ammendments MAY be subject to referendum in the future and not MUST be as it is now.
If we had ratified this referendum they could get away with changing our laws and our Constitution in the future without putting it to the Irish electorate. I hope everyone realises how close we came in this vote. If they break their own laws and re-package it again, I’ll never vote to support this act or that European Law is superior to our own Irish Supreme Court.
We’ve spent 800 yrs trying to get our own Constitution , what a shame it would be to hand it over to the EU less than 100 yrs later.
I too agree with you that most people of the EU are thanking us and are greatful that we have such a tight constitution.
I had an arguement with someone the other day, one of our local politicians in fact and on any of the points I put to him, he couldn’t answer me, as in “Would you go into a solicitors and sign an open ended document that can be changed without your say in the future?”
I could see by his face that he agreed with me but couldn’t break party stance on this as they were all ordered to come on the YES side . How in this day and age with our politicians more worried about their careers rather than their right to a free and democratic vote are we supposed to have faith in them that they’ll put us the Irish people ahead of themselves in the EU.
Dave: I had another arguement with a man the other day who’s comment was ” all the “NO’s” are eejits.” When I asked him why he thought this and after putting some of the same questions to him, he just repeated himself. I just gave him a parting comment that I was glad that I hadn’t come up against him in my debating team in school, I mean with stunning repartee like that he would’ve been unbeatable lololololololololol
So not only some of the NO’s didn’t understand this treaty and better to be safe if they didn’t that to ratify something because they were following like sheep.
I would like you to answer this question for me Dave, I mean can u tell me that u would sign this and put your faith in the EU to make important decisions for you without your say in the future???????
I’m sleeping soundly too Michael lol
June 19th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Bloody helll… read my flippin post again… check the date it was written on compared to the date of the feckin vote and then read it again… please tell me where i advocate one side or another or where i say that its only the no voters need to read up on it?
June 19th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Dave,
I’m sorry if I took u up wrong but u were canvassing for it so I persumed (maybe wrongly) that u were talking about the NO’s, I apologise if this is not the case however .
June 19th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
Thanks Therese,
I was talking about most of the people who I had met… regardless of the way they were intending to vote or even some who openly admitted that they just couldn’t give a flying and wouldn’t bother to vote at all (which is their right I know but I can’t help being annoyed!)
Apologies for being a bit harsh this morning, it had been a long night at work and I gets cranky!
To answer your question I think there was an awful lot of very useful change and reform in the treaty that would/will help us all in our day to day lives but probably in ways we won’t notice.
I think that on the whole the EU has proved itself time and again to be a fair and just organisation and that we have benefited greatly from membership.
However, and this is the important bit I guess, I do feel that the treaty should have been broken up into smaller more manageable and more connected reforms e.g. a reform of defence policy separate to reform of the commission, reform of tax policy separate to the charter of fundamental human rights… I think bundling all these things together in one package is what has caused the real problem and that is what our top level politicians have failed to grasp.
Now from a political point of view I think we may have shot ourselves in the foot by voting no because it would have been easier to sort out things we didn’t like with good some good political manoeuvring at a later date… I know people don’t like to hear it but it is a fact that we are only 0.8% of the EU and when you are in that situation you have to play the game a bit cuter! And we have not been cute.
But (and this is as important as my however above) the REAL mistake was made at the top levels of the EU when they decided they were going to press on with their preferred reforms regardless of the will of the people. And to that end I think, even though it may not have been the cute political thing to do, that the Irish people can have a clear conscience following the referendum… There will however I fear be a price to pay for this clear conscience.
I look forward to being attacked!
June 19th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Dear Dave,
Far from attacking you a lot of what u say makes sense and mostly I agree with it, and I have to say that the people I’ve met who had no idea what they were voting for annoyed me as well. It’s our duty to try to find out what is being asked of us and to vote according to our conscience, not following party stance as many politicians did or to prostitute our country’s freedom of referenda by gaining slightly better domestic deals as some institutions did.
There was a lot in this treaty that was good and would’ve been good for the country and perhaps the way to have gotten these passed would’ve been to as you say seperate them into smaller packages and then I would’ve happily voted for some of them. Apart, however, from the possible loss for the right to veto and the superiority of the EU court which I can’t see my way to ever handing over power to the EU or trusting them to do the best for us with that power. A serious problem also with this is that I was worried about the 5 out of every 15 years that we wouldn’t have a commissioner around the table at all to speak for us.
There is too little transparency in the EU and as I’ve said before I don’t want to be a part of a Utd States of Europe esp. when they seem set to pass things through law with only .8% having the chance to voice their opinions.
In saying that though I agree that the EU has been good for Ireland and I am not anti-EU by any means.
Hope you survived the attack, I must be losing my bite :P:P
June 19th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Theresa Well Done, I agree with all you have said.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:00 am
In relation to institutional reform of the European Council, the criticism has been made in the past that the Council makes decisions behind closed doors. In future, when the European Council makes decisions, it will have to meet in public, so we will know the position that different countries have taken and the different arguments that are being put forward by various states.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:02 am
Apologies… the paragraph above was part of a larger post I was writing in word (because my spelling is terrible!) and I copied and pasted incorrectly!!!
The full post is below!
June 20th, 2008 at 12:02 am
Interesting that you single out those 3 things as non negotiables… the commission, the EU court and the veto.
The court has been vital in ensuring that the full benefits of EU law reached us the lowly citizens of the Union and it was made clear by the independent referendum commission that the court would not be able to over rule our constitution without a referendum here.
The commissioners are there to run their department for the whole of the EU and not to represent their countries view/interests in the commission. We have this problem in Ireland where the government plays geographical sugar daddy to the country with its distribution of ministers and an ever increasing army of junior ministers who all feather their own nests while in office to ensure re-election from their constituents.
Surely we given the chance to redesign our political landscape we would endeavour to remove the gombeenism?
By not having a commissioner for 5 of 15 years we were in the exact same position as Germany and France and all other member States. It is interesting to note that the larger states such as the two mentioned have already given up one of their two commissioners to facilitate the new member states getting a commissioner and that also under Nice II there is an agreement that once there are 27 states the size of the commission would be reduced to make it more efficient… although there is no provision as to how this would be achieved. Under the Irish presidency of the EU with the master of mediation (that’d be Bertie) the system of rotation was agreed and thought to be the fairest way of achieving the reduction in size. The key thing here is that the reduction is happening anyway!
The other thing to note about the Commission is that it does not actually make or finalise decisions on behalf of the EU. What the Commission does is bring forward proposals and then it gives those proposals to the European Parliament and the European Council (where government is represented) for amendment and final decision. So, the crucial bodies to have Irish representation on permanently are the Council and the European Parliament.
The criticism you made that decision making in the EU happened behind closed doors was also addressed in Lisbon. Under Lisbon rules, when the European Council makes decisions, it will have to meet in public, so we will know the position that different countries have taken and the different arguments that are being put forward by various states.
As for the veto I can totally see where you are coming from there… A small nation must defend itself and the veto was our key weapon against being over run by a rampant EU! But the government did identify and ring fence the key areas which Ireland regards as non of the EU’s business. In fact Lisbon for the first time set in stone the area’s where the EU would take the legislative lead and where our national parliament would reign supreme. We would still maintain our veto on issues of tax, neutrality and common security/defence.
I still stand over what I wrote above regarding mistakes made by the politicians and I think that to throw the treaty back at us for another vote would be a serious treat to our democracy.
I think the No side ran a very effective campaign and that the Yes side made a dogs dinner of it to say the least. The No argument was easier to sell and the Yes side were constantly on the back foot clearing up ambiguity and sometimes blatant lies being told by some on the No side.
That said the people have spoke and that is that as far as I am concerned.
June 20th, 2008 at 10:14 am
Dave,
“The court has been vital in ensuring that the full benefits of EU law reached us the lowly citizens of the Union and it was made clear by the independent referendum commission that the court would not be able to over rule our constitution without a referendum here.”
I believe in regarding to this the text of the treaty said “MAY” be subject to referenda, not obliged to be and as regarding this it’s too dangerous. The only reason we had a referendum at all was because of Raymond Crotty who took on the government in 1986 and the EU could not get around it, in future would they be able to if Lisbon was ratified???????? Yes is the answer I think u’ll find.
Regarding the commissioners, why is 27 commissioners two many to have at one time, the effect since the new countries have joined is things seem to be happening faster not slower as was the case. If 27 commissioners are too many for 490 million people how the hell do we survive with the amount of ministers we have for 4 million. I agree there are too many here but 27 commissioners to speak for 490 million does not, in my book, seem excessive.
It seems in the paper “Times” today that there is growing support for holding on to the 27 commissioners in Europe. I know this was ratified in the Nice II treaty . Now are they thinking of ammending that in order to get us on board without asking the other 99.2% of the EU elecorate again.
This is one of the many problems I have with the EU, if we don’t do what they want, we’ll change it to suit the few and get what we want anyway approach.
Dave you put across very good arguements and I enjoy the debate.
Mairead ta lol
June 20th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Dave, looks like the treaty will be put to us again. If it is, will you be voting yes again? Sorry if I’m putting you on the spot!
June 20th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
hi John, i didn’t vote yes this time around… And i doubt that would change next time out under the circumstances you suggest!
June 21st, 2008 at 12:06 am
I voted No and I agree to the way Dave sees the way the Treaty of Lisbon would affect us. I was worried myself about the extent of the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice under the Lisbon Treaty when I voted No - and I am still concerned about that jurisdiction unless Lisbon is renegotiated and amended in this particular. In the meantime I feel that we would need the interpretation of independent senior council here, and for counsel’s verdict to be explained as simply as possible, perhaps by the very best independent professional journalists. They are speaking of allowing protocols to assure us, but I ask - how far does a protocol go under International Law, and what affect does such protocol have on our own Law, a protocol being an agreement that everybody agrees to keep, but does not or need bnot necessarily keep it. In computer-speak we have our protocols, famously TCP/IP protocols - hackers abuse them all the time ! I feel that the only way out without renegotiating is for the ECJ to publicly declare itself inferior to the Constitution and Supreme Court of Ireland. And now with the Czechs Republic possibly setting its face against Lisbon, it seems that the Treaty will be finished anywa, so why therefore should the irish, or any, government attempt to save what is rejected by the irish People and now for a second time heading for collapse - the british now have their Court difficulties with the Lisbon Treaty too. In fact it is looking as if the Irish No voters are going to be proved to be right. Now, if this happens will Cowen, Kenny & Co say to the Irish No Voters, “Hey, you lot were right and we were wrong ! ”
Hell will freeze over first ! Michael McGrath, Kilkenny City.
June 21st, 2008 at 12:04 pm
What I dont understand is how the Nice treaty is in effect when we voted NO to that too???
June 21st, 2008 at 3:57 pm
We voted yes to Nice II… the same treaty with a few sweetners thrown in to keep us happy!!!
June 21st, 2008 at 4:36 pm
It now seems as if the EU has nothing to offer us economically, and that we offer much more economically to the EU between our fissheries and also allowing in hundreds of thousands of people from all over the EU to good jobs here.
There is the CAP, but that is money to farmers voting Yes that none of the rest of us see except shops and pubs - in exchange, you could say, for our fisheries and our natural gas out at sea.
All that is left for us then is the EU market in return for all we do for them - perhaps Associate Membership of the EU like Norway, the richest country in the world, would be good for Ireland too >
I do not see any reason whatsoever for any hurry to renegotiate, nor for another vote on the Lisbon reaty which offers nothing but more Diktat for Ireland.
I see no reason whatsoever why we should worry about getting Cowen & Co out of their embarrassment, who cares ?
Watch the EU quake if we threatened to send back their immigrants by the planeload !!!
All that said, I do not like to have to climb into bed with Joe Higgins and the Extreme Left again, so hopefully my Government will spare me that.
June 22nd, 2008 at 11:06 am
IT BEGINS !!!! Was wondering how long it would take, front page of The Times this windy Sun Morn, “Ireland to face Lisbon II next spring” I don’t care what they change, the fact they might ask again is bull, so I’ll be voting NO again. I really can’t believe that if this headline comes to frutition they’d expect it to pass. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
June 22nd, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Wouldn’t it be wonderful to be free again, sigh…
June 22nd, 2008 at 4:01 pm
I have to disagree Michael,
We have never been so truly free as a nation from British rule and influence than when we joined the EEC in 1973!
I don’t think people grasp the importance of the economy of scale that EU membership grants us. Without that we will sink as a small isolated island nation.
The agreements that say Norway and Switzerland have will not be extended to us… they did not join and pack it in when things didn’t suit them; they ploughed their own furrow from the start and declined numerous offers of membership!
Once again I’m not trying to advocate one side or the other… just pointing out that both sides have consequences… (Assuming that we are now talking about Lisbon II)
If/When we do vote on Lisbon II we may well be voting to decide whether on not we remain in the EU. This will be a grave decision one which will shape the future of our country like no vote before. We will be asked do we want to be an island off the coast of a rapidly developing EU or do we want to be part of it- shaping its future.
My honest opinion in that instance… we are better of inside… with out seats in the Parliament, our ministers around the table and for 10 out of 15 years our commissioner too!
I’ll take my chance with abortion and corporate tax rates… no one denies that neutrality is safe… so fuck it lads… the EU isn’t really a monster… its 470 million more people just like us all trying to pay the bills and made a good life for those coming behind.
June 22nd, 2008 at 4:21 pm
To be free of Barroso & co telling Ireland what to do, wouldn’t it be wonderful, sigh…
To be like Norway and Switzerland,
Free, heavenly…agh…
June 22nd, 2008 at 6:44 pm
As much as the principle of voting for a second time annoys me I think we need to be sensible if/when we’re asked to vote again. We said no because the deal didn’t suit us. If they change enough that it suits us then we’d be foolish to say no again.
I’m no until proven otherwise though! ;P
As far as needing the EU goes…we’ll I want to stay in…but not at any price. If the deal is right then fine, if it’s not then I say let’s take our chances on our own. We can make good deals as an independent little island off the coast of the EU.
June 22nd, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Wouldn’t it be lovely to be free of all that Brussels diktat, to be FREE. And we can be too.
Associate membership will give us all that we have (except perhaps the farmers and the cap, but that’s going anyway) and as Associates we will not be under any EU regulations at all.
Now, what’s wrong with that ?
Some people want to be “at the centre of things”, making rules within the EU for everybody else - I don’t, and I now suspect that the majority of the Irish people don’t either.
Also, remember, when the EU fines the Irish Government ( a few hundred millions to date, I think) it is we the Irish taxpayers who have to pay those fines, not the authorities who break EU rules.
As Associates we would not have to put up with any of this.
And as Associates we could as well as having the EU market, make our independent deals globally with all other countries, this is why Norway is so wealthy !!!
And we would be a bridge, the natural bridge, between Europe and the USA, with a solid foot in each camp.
Oh yes, to be FREE -
And Wealthy too …
Imagine.
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Jesus Michael,
Can I have some of what ever you are smoking!!! If we go, we’ll be gone. The will be no good will politically to negotiate “associate” membership so that’s is totally out of the question.
As for Norway… oil and gas my friends… that’s why they are so wealthy!!!
Give me 3 examples of where the EU has imposed something on the Irish public against our will? Membership of the EU has had incredible benefits for us all, with the exception of the fishing industry which was sold out for a few extra quid for the farmers.
This is politics at the top level… there is no room for hissy fits, pouting or other forms of childish behaviour. You have to look at it from a cold unemotional, economical, social and environmental point of view.
The EU has a far better track record than any Irish government on fiscal management, general economics, environmental issues, human rights, the arts, social funding, educational issues, infrastructural funding and has a total lack of gombeenism!!!! How do we not get it?
As for these fines you mention… bold EU, fining the poor gombeens in Dublin for wasting their allowance from Brussels!
Sorry now Michael but even on the most simplistic level how much have they fined us compared to how much they have given us? How much have we the Irish tax payer gotten from all those really lovely kind, German, French, Dutch, English and Belgian tax payers? And then we turn about and say thanks for the money, we don’t like the rules now so we’re off… but we still want to have all the benefits… just none of the responsibility…
So back to the child like analogy… we are like the 19yr old teenager who want to live at home, pay no rent, come and go as they please but still get their room heater, use the shower and toiletries’, have their laundry done and borrow the car at the weekends… Wake up Michael; you’re in dream land I’m afraid.
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:20 pm
And there’s more!!!
Not only would we be free… we would be free of the following;
• Free from money to build roads
• Free from money to develop rural and disadvantaged areas.
• Free from money for tourism development projects under LEADER funding
• Free from money for many arts and cultural projects
• Free to negotiate prices of oil and gas in competition with the EU… gee I wonder how that’ll work out?
• Free to represent ourselves at WTO talks… that’ll be fun…. Remember how the world listened to Dev at Versailles?
• Free to have our own currency again… with the Irish central bank setting the interest rates… how did that work out last time? Does anyone remember the 80’s… 16%?
But we’d be free from the tyranny that has reigned down upon us since the Euro and all those oppressive rulings of the EU courts making all our children have at least one abortion and sending our troops to die on foreign soil for oil and making us a 3rd world nation!!! Free, free, free I tell you!
June 22nd, 2008 at 8:32 pm
What if they say like it or lump it Eoin?
If the other 26 nations ratify it… and then say… look Ireland we want to run the EU this way. If you don’t then tough? What then?
As the Yes side said on more than once… In fact they were accused of scare tactics for saying it… there is likely no room for reworking the deal!!!
June 22nd, 2008 at 10:55 pm
It remains really difficult to get an objective view on this whole Lisbon thing.
Like Eoin, I’d agree that if we need to be sensible, however I think this ‘democratic deficit’ as it is being widely referred to needs to be addressed as well as specific issues with the treaty itself.
For example, I heard tell of research to be carried out to ascertain why the Irish people voted No. I’d like also to get a reading on how many other countries would have liked to vote on the issue and a poll on how that vote would go.
Is Ireland *really* out on it’s own here, or are the governments of the member countries out on their own.
We are still getting, from a variety of rational and intelligent people, a huge range of opinions from ‘the sky is falling’ to ‘life continues on as usual’.
Makes one wonder all the more about the strange reality of the huge differences in opinion on the importance or the impact of the Lisbon Treaty.
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:24 am
Dave, if they say “like it or lump it” then to be honest with you I’d lump it. The Treaty was supposed to require 100% ratification. Yes, it seems ridiculous for such a small percentage of the EU’s population to hold everything up but I’d be more willing to listen to that argument if more the EU’s population got to vote on it.
As it is 100% of the EU’s population who voted on the Treaty returned a NO vote!
I don’t believe that the EU would want or be able to put such an ultimatum to us anyway. That’s one of the reasons I’m happy to continue in the EU, despite not agreeing with the Treaty.
What I don’t like however, is the way people within the EU are suggesting that we might face a “like it or lump it” situation. By doing this they get to scare people with the idea while still being able to say “we never said that.” It’s a bluff!
I’d be very interested in seeing that poll too Frank.
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:44 am
Eoin,
I guess the point I’m making is mostly a political one… I do think that there might be a movement within the EU (at a high level) that might want to kick our isolated asses back to the 80’s if we don’t play the game.
Even if I’m wrong on that one (I probably am) I think the effects on our day to day lives would not be worth the sacrifices’ we would have to make to continue playing the game!
We really need to stop worrying about the rest and focus on what is in our best interests! If the citizens of the rest of the EU want to vote then let them lobby their politicians let them write to their newspaper editors and let them complain to their national broadcaster (and write on blogs!)
OK here is the crux of my argument… We are better off inside the EU working with the institutions to shape a better future for ourselves than trying to compete as a tiny, underdeveloped and poorly managed banana republic. If we are in the game we can influence the outcome…
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:46 am
By the way the results of that poll are published in the Sunday Business Post… Obviously I have the SBP and I will trawl through it tonight and try and put some stuff up here on Bifsniff tonight!
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:15 am
Dave you can’t mean: and I quote:
“We are better off inside the EU working with the institutions to shape a better future for ourselves,” While the Lisbon Treaty stays as it is??
There will have to be amendments to the said Treaty for the Irish People(No Vote’s) Who have already spoken to change there Mind and Vote Yes, But while there appears to be other agendas at work and no Transparency, or again I say it, No Democracy only BullyBoy Tactics, forget it, The Irish are not fools and will not be treated as such..
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:20 am
What I’m saying is Mairead that if the rest of the 26 member states ratify the treaty they would be well within their rights to turn around and say to us to ratify of shag off!
In that instance we would be faced with the choice of opting in or out of the EU in which case we are better off!
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:25 am
Better off inside that EU of course…
The Sunday Business Post website has several good articles detailing the polls conducted during the week… http://www.sbpost.ie
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:37 am
See Dave that is where I disagree with you I think they EU are not well within their rights to ratify as it stands at this moment, and our Government should insist they don’t.
I see where you are coming from but I can’t agree sorry.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:26 am
Dave, you are panicking:
No EU State or Group of EU States has any right whatsoever to get together and gang up on any other EU State or States, no matter what justification they may feel that they have. Please bear this essential fact in mind and relax.
Nor can any group of the other EU States go their way and implement the Lisbon Treaty for themselves, they may ratify it, as they are doing, without recourse to the wishes of their peoples, but they cannot bring it into International Law without the assent of the People of ireland, that is fact, that is the Law.
So we do not have to vote on the Lisbon Treaty again, and, no, we do not have to vote yes to that Treaty against our will, in fact we should, all of us, including those who voted Yes, protest against this attempt to force the Lisbon Treaty down the throats of us Irish people instead of respecting our verdict as they did the verdicts of France and Holland against the European Constitution.
Some of the big EU States and their smaller clientelist States may try to hold private meetings without us, behind our backs, but this is all they can do, and by resorting to such sneakiness they will only show their undemocratic natures up to the world. And we can object to this carry-on behind our backs as well, and publicise such blackguarding internationally.
(BTW Dave, we have as much gas as Norway ! I think they have iron that we do not have, that’s all. They also pay circa 240 millions a year to the EU for EU services. They can’t join the EU because their coalition governments can never come to agreement on the issue).
And now, it seems, we have the Czechs Republic opting out as well, also the British Government being challenged by the High Court on their ratification of the Lisbon treaty.
This Lisbon treaty is breaking up because it is sneaky and against the spirit of democracy, and as such decent people cannot possibly subscribe to it.
Re Associate membership, the others led by Barroso would be mightily relieved to grant ireland Associate Membership, which would be worth all the struggle Ireland has had to face against those who would shackle her.
Associate membership would mean, basically, the end of the Cap payments to Irish farmers, the restoration of our fisheries to us
- and, above all, the restoration of our Sovereignty, Liberty and all our freedoms as a nation to us, as the writ of the EU is removed from Ireland, the writ of their ECJ Court no longer applicable, their EU Commission Diktat removed from Ireland too, and their damned fines as well,
Above all it would mean Freedom at last for Ireland - and prosperity too, probably better than ever as we retain our EU Markets and are FREE to go and negotiate trade agreements with every other country on the planet. As EU Associates we could, and would, end up the richest country on Earth.
(Concerning motorway construction, Dave, it is all PPPs now, with Tolls paying the way, as we see the M3 being pushed through the Tara Valley as a double-tolled road ! ).
Remember, they can do nothing, they are helpless, even if Ireland refuses forever to ratify their Lisbon Treaty. And that we should ! If only to have our own lives and freedoms back again to chart our own destiny among the nations of the Earth.
Now wouldn’t that be worthwhile, wouldn’t it.
To wake up in the morning, every morning, FREE, Free to run our own affairs without interference from anybody on Earth, to play our part as we always do in international forums of the U.N., but otherwise to be one hundred per cent sovereign, one hundred per cent neutral, one hundred per cent free to enjoy our own nationhood in peace and prosperity.
With the No Vote we have made a great start, let us now continue, we are on the right road, until the Dream come true.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:38 am
Hear Hear Michael, I Love your Optimism, LOL Yes Dave Best watch out for the Blood Pressure. Good Morning, God Bless, Have a Good Week Slán
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:52 am
Dave, you seem to think that we can only work out the destiny of Ireland by making “Irish” laws in Brussels and Strasburg ?
Surely it is more proper that we as a Nation make our laws in our own Parliament, Dail and Seanad Eireann in Dublin, and that, even now, the more laws we make in the Oireachtas, and indeed at regional and local level the better !
There are rumblings now that the Polish Government is not satisfied…Sarcozy is lashing Mandelson while he doesn’t give a blind F*** about Sarcozy or the IFA, or the irish Government, or indeed the British Government either (from which he was twice dropped).
In less than two years the new British Conversative Government will more than likely initiate procedures to withdraw the UK from the EU, and will eventually probably settle on Associate membership which is the way we should be going, but we are making progress in such a direction too.
I do as well take issue with Dave’s idea that Brussels can make laws for us better than our own governments can, I think he will admit that he is not seriously suggesting this …
June 23rd, 2008 at 10:36 am
You keep harping on about freedom Michael… yet you can’t put forward any way in which membership of the EU makes us less free? If anything in my humble opinion it makes us more free as a nation.
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:10 am
Dave,
“We really need to stop worrying about the rest and focus on what is in our best interests!”
While I agree with this to an extent - as in we need to focus on making sure the Lisbon Treaty and all further treaties are right for Ireland - I also feel that we have a responsibility to help the cause of those in other countries who want to vote on this issue. If it was the other way around we would be talking here about how we needed the French/German/British/Whoever to help our cause.
The days of Ireland being a small player in Europe who should keep her head down have passed. We’re too wealthy now. We have responsibilities to ourselves and to our fellow EU members!
“We are better off inside the EU working with the institutions to shape a better future for ourselves than trying to compete as a tiny, underdeveloped and poorly managed banana republic. If we are in the game we can influence the outcome…”
I agree with you Dave. We are better off in the EU. I guess I see standing up for ourselves as influencing the outcome. I’m not happy to be in a game where the other players are dictating the rules though. In that instance…”it’s my ball and I’m going home”
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:11 am
Thanks for the SBP link.
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:27 am
The problem is though Eoin… it is their ball!!!
The phrase about biting nose and ones face springs to mind!
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:35 am
It seems Dave that we differ in our opinion on what would be best for the country. You want to stay in the EU and it seems at any cost, while I want to stay in the EU, but only if it’s the right EU for Ireland.
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:55 am
No Eoin, not at any cost… but I think that the costs incurred for Lisbon are worth paying. I’ve yet to see the no side put forward any tangable “loss” or “cost” to offset the gains most of which are tangable associated with EU membership
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:57 am
I’m glad to hear it Dave. I guess I’m waiting for the Yes side to reassure me of what those costs would be. Too many we’ll decide this later or may effects for my liking.
June 23rd, 2008 at 11:59 am
Dave, we are Unfree.
Whenever you have to anxiously look over your shoul;der, hold your breath, wonder what’s to become of you next, you are Unfree. That’s what a man on the run from the Police does, that’s a prisoner, Dave. And that’s Ireland vis-a-vis the EU right now as our politicians, most of them, cringe to the EU Masters, as they forecast dire consequences, as EU politicians and Commissioners advise us irish what’s good for us, telling us what we should do (with the “Or Else” always implicit), with experts discussing Ireland’s “Fate”, with our own newspapers warning us of the terrible WOE that awaits us, and with nobody but Britain, “the old enemy”, with a kind word. Dave we are Unfree, and, “Ireland Unfree shall never be at Peace ! ” - Remember Him, Dave…
What would he say, what would he do ? That is quite clear and obvious.
I am afraid you have caught a severe dose of the Beggars Mentality, Dave, and sadly you’re not the only one, 35 years of the EU have done that to Ireland, blinded us so that we can no longer see the joyous future that awaits us - in Peace and Prosperity, when we are ourselves again, in our own Land again, when we are Free !
We have struck the first blow for that freedom, all goes well.
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Seriously Michael… what ever it is ur smokin… please please share!!!
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Dave, is your office in Government Buildings, by any chance ?
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:14 pm
not yet
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I see…
getting ready to sell out even before you’re elected…
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:22 pm
… a half-decent man would wait !
June 23rd, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Da Trooth shall set you free:
http://www.europeanmovement.net/wordpress/
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:01 pm
In reply to what he calls the latest threats by the French Foreign Minister from Paris to Ireland, Economist Moore McDowell has just condemned “Harrassment from Paris”, over Newstalk, saying that this is the last thing we want ! Mr. McDowell’s voice quivered with anger as he denounced this latest French interference in Ireland’s affairs.
Freedom, Dave, eh ?
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:17 pm
You think that by leaving the EU that there will be no foreign influence on our domestic affairs… dream on Michael!
Any idea how much of our GDP comes from foreign companies… how many companies have relocated to Ireland becuase it gave them access to the EU. You are deluded!
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:24 pm
There will be less dictation as we have just now experienced from the French Foreign Minister - Harrassment from Paris !!! And from Brussels, and from Strasburg, and from…
All companies in Ireland, including foreign companies based here, will have full and complete access to the entire European Market under Associate membership such as Norway has, and such as Ireland can have for the asking, no problem at all.
And even better, as Associates, we can, untramelled by EU regulations negotiate more and more business and trade with every country on the planet !
We would be blindingly rich and powerful.
BTW, I don’t think you stopped to read Da Trooth :
http://www.europeanmovement.net/wordpress/
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:33 pm
…though, personally I do not want to be either rich or powerful, just comfortable with leisure for spiritual needs, pastimes and sport, the Good Life which we in Ireland can have if we can only see it - and our eyes are opening more all the time…
June 23rd, 2008 at 1:37 pm
…my time is almost up, it’s the future Ireland I’m thinking of, I thank God for being born here in Ireland, for experiencing decency from the people of England and the friendship of so many Americans in my time, for these are our real friends - not those who threaten us from Paris and Brussels !
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Irish People are raging at all these threats against Ireland, as I write Lunchtime on Newstalk is inundated with phoners most of whom are voting NO if there is another referendum on the Lisbon Treaty no matter what the “guarantees” that go with it - the vote is 60-40 in favour of NO right now. You can participate by going over to http://www.newstalk.ie/lunchtime. I believe that in another second referendum there will be as many as One Million No Voters who will bury this Lisbon Treaty for all time on behalf of the Peoples of Ireland and Europe.
http://www.europeanmovement.net/wordpress/
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Apologies, Newstalk obviously hasn’t set that page up yet - but get ready to phone/email/text your comments into Questions & Answers, RTE, which should be HOT tonight, what with all the threats against Ireland.
June 23rd, 2008 at 2:43 pm
OK so what is so wrong with the idea of an EU super state… like in the USA where each state has control over certain things but the federal governement controls things in the interest of all… eg education, defence, roads etc… whats so bad about that idea?
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Ah, now we see Dave admitting, now that he is driven to it, the Real Purpose of the Lisbon Treaty, Angela Merkel the German Chancellor, Sarcozy the French President and Il Duce Berlusconi of Italy, and other Undesirables wanting to set up their own Fourth Reich in Europe -
Of course they are entitled to if they want, it even sounds exciting -
But not by stomping all over us Irish and all our fellow European Peoples on their way to World Domination !
Ah now the leopard shows his spots, doesn’t he Dave -
You declare you see nothing wrong with Federal European Control of Defence, that you see nothing wrong with Federal European Control of Education, well at least you are more honest about the Real purpose of the Lisbon Treaty than Cowan and Kenny and their ilk.
A United States of Europe, no less ? What grandiose dreams of power you have, Dave, though you are entitled to your dreams, but not off Ireland’s back !
And what we are asking is: Where is our Constitution, where are our Courts, where are our Laws in all of this ?
All trampled upon by your United States of Europe Juggernaut !
http://www.europeanmovement.net/wordpress/
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:11 pm
“Lisbon, Lisbon Uber Alles,
Uber Alles aus der welt…..
Come on Dave, let’s march on Moscow,
Delhi, Beijing, Tokyo - and finally -
WASHINGTON !!!
Ar aghiadh le Fine Gael,
C’mon the Blueshirts !
Haw haw Haw…
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Correction:
“Ar Aghaidh le Fine Gael,
C’mon the Blueshirts ! ”
eh, Dave …
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:20 pm
A share in your European Empire, Dave ?
Thanks, but no thanks !
Michael.
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:21 pm
http://www.europeanmovement.net/wordpress/
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:23 pm
No Michael,
I asked a question… It you have shown yourself up as a raving lunatic!!!
Seriously
June 23rd, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Dave is reversing back fast now -
Dave, watch that Juggernaut behind you,
Careful !!!
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Michael… There is no reversing going no here. I asked a question and you went off on some mad conspiracy theory rant about a fourth reich! And you still didn’t answer the question- what would actually be wrong with it? Now the obvious answer is on one actually wants it, except maybe as you point out a few high level euro politicians… So now that i’ve given the easy answer you need to actually think of one for yourself…
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Hi Dave and Michael .. Im enjoying the two of you…LOL
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:44 pm
“We really need to stop worrying about the rest and focus on what is in our best interests!”
Dave, as I said to you on instant messaging chat:
So it’s not about us worrying about the others it’s worrying about OUR support of such erosion of democrocy.
Also you say:
“The problem is though Eoin… it is their ball!!!”
NO. It’s not, we are a member state of this European Union and as a memeber state we said NO to Lisbon. It’s not Ireland’s ball, or Europe’s ball it’s OUR ball.
Seriously, between the nature of this treaty, the Nice fiasco and now the possible repeat of the Nice fiasco, democracy may be well and truly dead in the water.
Democracy is not easy, no one said it was - it’s a bitch. But it’s there to safeguard the people.
This is not democracy.
June 23rd, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Again, to be clear, my quote above is slightly out of context, and so I should clarify that I wish to remain in the EU, but the EU needs to carefully examine it democratic principles.
June 23rd, 2008 at 8:02 pm
You reversed back fast, Dave, Haw Haw Haw, and then you went into histrionic convolutions !!!
You’ll have to be better than that on the doorsteps next year, Dave, to grab another Euro Parl seat for Fine Gael in Dublin !
Don’t worry, you’re getting great training here,
Haw Haw haw…
June 23rd, 2008 at 8:14 pm
It just struck me, the Irish must by now be easily the very best educated population in Europe about the EU -
It takes a good one like you to fool them, Dave !
June 24th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Dave ” the fourth reich!” in respect to the EU well it really is not a mad rant you know. Not when the whole idea came from Dr Horst Jecht at a conference held in Berlin in 1942.
Followed by another in 1944 entitled “How Germany will dominate the peace when it loses the war”.
You see that this EU idea was born during the Third Reich!
June 24th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
The Fourth Reich strikes me as a little sensationalist. Yes, there’s a possibility that someone might try and use the EU for World Domination or whatever but we’re a couple of steps away from that yet. I’m not saying don’t guard against it, but I don’t think we should make it a main focus of the debate either.
We want a fair EU for big and small countries alike. If we focus on getting that out of the Lisbon Treaty then we will also be guarding again any fourth reich to come.
June 24th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Further I have to say I really enjoyed reading the next piece, which exemplifies the singular craftiness of the politicians!
The following quote is from the founder of the European Movement, Jean Monnet in a private correspondence.
“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”
Jean Monnet again: “The fusion of economic functions would compel nations to fuse their sovereignty into that of a single European State”, 3rd April 1952
June 24th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
The ESRI report indicating the start of a recession was rushed out in a most timely fashion, wasn’t it - to frighten the shit out of the Irish people into voting Yes the next time round. That’s the murky world in which these bureaucrats and eurocrats operate, that’s how they operate, that’s how they fool people into curtailing their own freedom. At least Taoiseach Brian Cowen is showing signs of copping on to their game when he says that the ESRI economists are a pessimistic lot.
It’s all in the timing.
June 24th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Then the Big Lie was hurled against the UKIP that they are Racist just because they are against a United States of Europe and that they cheered on the irish No Vote in the Euro Parliament.
The FACT of the matter is that the UKIP is not Racist - it has coloured, black and Jewish members in high party positions. It has Irish MEP Kathy Sinnott, a brilliant woman in its Independent and Democratic Group in the European Parliament - Kathy is in fact Chairperson of the Democratic Group.
Then Fine Gael’s Avril Doyle MEP, one of the Billionaire Belton family of Dublin, savaged Jim Allister MEP of Northern Ireland just because Jim celebrated Ireland’s No Vote, but more sinisterly because Jim is a Unionist , talk about the Pro-Treatyite Yes Voters causing division and strife which is what they are doing as poor losers ever since the No side looked like winning !!! Wjhere is the Spirit of the Good friday Agreement with such savage mauling in the Euro parliament such as Irish Unionist Jim Allister suffered at the mouth of Avril Doyle, and a most powerful scorful mouth hers is too ! (though Avril is a lovely lady when you meet her “off duty” as I have). I’d say her poor husband is rather hen-pecked , though.
Then Avril rounded on an MEP wearing the irish jersey just because he was jailed for 7 months for being caught, when he was out of work, collecting a few extra pounds on the dole than he should have -
Billionaire Belton Avril would know nothing of that ordinary world of the ordinary small man and the little woman
- Arrogant Avril, like her Brussels Elite fellows, that’s another reason us Irish voted No, and a million of us will vote No next time round !
June 24th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
The more I think about this Lisbon business the less I like it and recently I started mulling over in my head the notion that now would be the opportune time to consider pulling out of the EU altogether.
We Irish have always viewed the EU as a benign institution. What if we have been wrong? Or more likely, what if we’ve been right up to now, but now the EU has gone too far and it’s time to end the relationship.
Could we make a go of things on our own? I think that’s the important question right now. There’s a malaise afoot in the country, a queasy, uneasy kind of feeling where everyone knows there’s something wrong but nobody can quite put their finger on it. The current direction isn’t looking too good; maybe it’s time to try something radically different.
Let’s look at energy. We should be able to be self-sufficient in energy; the Corrib gas field is vast; other off-shore fields exist and further afield Rockall remains unresolved. We have plenty of coastline for wave and wind power. No sun for solar power, so that’s out. But nuclear hasn’t even yet been seriously considered, so all in all Ireland could be energy independent.
We have most of Europe’s best fishing grounds-or looked at another way, the EU has the best of our fishing grounds- they are of immense value and if properly managed could be enough to guarantee a standard of living at least commensurate with that of Iceland.
That’s before we look at agriculture. Freed of CAP and EU directives Ireland could be more than the butter factory it is today where farmers are paid ‘not’ to produce. There’s plenty of arable land there not being used or else just turned over to pasture. Look at the Dutch-no land and net food exporters.
So we’ve fed and heated ourselves, not doing too badly on our own. Now we can concentrate on finding a quality of living that is rewarding and makes us proud of being Irish. This is the time to ask our Unionist and Dissenting fellow Irishmen do they want to share in the process of creating a prosperous, advanced and truly independent Ireland and in an appropriate gesture the flag of 1798 becomes the flag of the country.
So, as I was saying maybe opting out now would be the best thing ever to happen us. I wonder does Brian Cowen ever have such thoughts?
June 25th, 2008 at 1:11 am
Associate Membership is the answer, we would have the world at our feet !
June 25th, 2008 at 1:18 am
But Michael, if this Associate membership business is all that you make it out to be then why aren’t they all at it?
June 25th, 2008 at 2:04 am
Because, Martin, they are members of the most exclusive, most enjoyable, and second most powerful club in the world after the USA (if you leave out the Catholic Church).
They would lose all their big salaries, expenses, high jet-setting lifestyles, and, above all, power to legislate over the lives of 500 million people just like ourselves.
The would grant us Associate membership immediately without question, they would be thrilled to do so, because we are in their eyes an irresponsible little island people mucking up their grandiose plans for a United States of Europe.
And even if they manage somehow to haul their best-laid plans contained in the Lisbon Treaty out of the mire, they are still unsure of us into the future.
tjhey can do what they like with almost all of the other 26, perhaps experiencing some minor problems with the Czechs, maybe with the next British Conservative Government who, likely, are going to pull out and go for Associate membership anyway:
Associate membership means, basically, that we are left with the entire internal market,
but we would have our fisheries back in their entirety, worth untold billions forever into the future ! Our sea energy, as you say, too.
We would have to pay an administrative fee, as Norway does, of circa 240 millions a year, chicken feed in the scheme of things.
Brian Cowen knows this, but he has to keep all his lackeys happy, or he is GONE !
Also for Brian to say anything in public would be like the Archbishop of Dublin expressing his doubts publicly about Jesus, for God’s sake !
(BTW I am a member of Fianna Fail, related by marriage to Liam Aylward MEP, one sound fellow - Liam doesn’t like to hear me talking like this either ! I do it all the time in the local “Kilkenny People”, and I am regarded here as in Kilkenny as the unofficial spokesperson of the No camp. At least Liam actually read the Lisbon Treaty, for all the good it done him, I remarked. ).
We have a wonderful Window of Opportunity for Ireland right now, let’s not waste it !
Generations would curse us if we do.
Cheers,
Michael.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:44 am
The one disadvantage of Associate Membership is that we would not be there at all at the table as we would have not a single vote on anything the EU decides on Commerce and Trade although their decisions would affect us together with all the other 26 in matters of trade and commerce.
A tiny price to pay seeing as we have substantially no say anyway in matters of Trade and Commerce, as witness the World Trade Talks that we could not possibly veto, no matter what Brian Cowen assured Irish farmers, as you will see…
In any case it is not nice to be the country casting a veto - everybody else hates you !
The converse is that as Associate Members the EU would have no power over us except to fix our annual fee which would be in the region of a quarter of a million Euros - chickenfeed in the Irish National Budget, and just imagine all those luscious trade agreements business based in Ireland would be tying up with the rest of the 200 odd countries in the world at our complete leisure -
Multinationals would beflocking to set up here, they would be