Redefining honour…
June 15th, 2007 by Frank
I bought a few papers while travelling yesterday and kept reading about how Trevor Sergant was “honouring” his promise to the people that he would resign as leader of the Green Party rather than lead them into government with Fianna Fail.
There’s a big difference between resigning rather than leading your party into Government with Fianna Fail and resigning after merrily leading them into government with Fianna Fail, and yet nobody in the media seemed remotely concernd with the distinction.
I hate it when the media feed you a line that is obviously horseshit and expect you to accept it.
Are they worried about offending the souce of the line by challenging it? Are they just that stupid? Do they think we’re that stupid?
Entries (RSS)
June 15th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
If you voted for them I guess you are…..am I enjoying all this?…yes I am !!
June 15th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
I was having that very conversation last night. Technically he resigned before they went into government but it still doesn’t stick to the promise he made. What makes it worse is that it’ll be something like October before they elect a new leader so he’s going to stay on as part leader until then!
I did feel sorry for Dan Boyle though. He played a major part in the negotiations and won’t be part of the government as he lost his seat. Let that be a warning to all of us in Cork South Central. From talking to people I get the feeling that it was an attitude of “Boyle will definitely get in anyway,” that lost him his seat. We could have had 2 ministers in our constituency!!
June 15th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
It’s a semi-valid point Frank, the only mitigating factor being what Eoin says about the technicality of “just before they entered government”. Personally, I think that’s it for the Greens though - like most other parties who have teamed up with the Beelzebub at one stage or another. Simply failing down on the Shannon thing and handing over the Hill of Tara will surely have cost them half their vote, purely on a matter of lost principles. Sad day.
June 15th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Well, the technicalities could be argued, but given that he has given his support to the move, and will accept a ministerial role I think ‘honour’ should be a word reserved for those who stick to the spirit of their promises and not just what they think they can manoeuvre technically…
And you’re right of course, the silver lining of getting the Greens into government is hard to see when they’ve already seemingly abandoned what many saw as core issues.
Ah it all just gets more and more depressing really.
Maybe Rich was right, maybe it’s time to give up voting…
June 15th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
In truth i think they made the right rather than honourable decision. From the point of view of how things actually work in the real world anyway.
They’re on a steep learning curve though…If they thought FF were hard to deal with, wait till the new Green ministers ( and i mean that in every way ) have to tackle the intransigent senior civil servants in their departments. It will easily be the best part of five years before they learn how to ACTUALLY go about achieving their aims.
But from a former idealist I’m happy to see a start. You always fight fire with fire…unless your Ghandi…and nobody has the patience for that these days !
June 17th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
I’m not so sure. I stayed away from commenting on the actual decision as I didn’t really have time to think it through - and I still haven’t - but so far I’m leaning toward ‘deperate mistake’.
The voters spoke and all that, and they wanted FF back in Government. But Green voters voted on their policies, some integral policies have now been abandoned in the agreement because as everyone knows FF would implement them when hell freezes over.
I already had issues with voting for the greens because of their shift to the center, now how long will it be now before they are indistringuishable from FF?
They would probably have better served their voters, and the country in general by taking up the role of a true opposition party.
If they were fighting fire with fire, I might agree with you rich, but it seems to me their fighting fire by throwing themselves into the blaze, which will only feed the flames.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
I think far from being the right (or even the honourable) decision in this case that the Greens have signed their own death warrant. They had been the one true ideological party… or at least the only one with a decent vote!
Now they are junior partners with the Devil… As has been seen already this week with John Gormley backing down and toeing the party line on the M3, they sold out on Shannon saying that its ok now as the Americans are NOW operating with a UN mandate. So as the old saying goes everyone has a price. In the case of the greens its two ministries (but we’ll do what we’re told!) one or two junior ministries (again we’ll do exactly what we’re told, honestly Boss) and two senate seats.
Over half of the population did not vote for FF (or the Me Fein party as I like to call them) and I think that that will come back to bite the Green’s in their bike riding ass the next time the people “speak.� Only then will we see for real whether this has been the right and/or honourable thing to do or the biggest mistake in the history of green politics.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
As far as the people have spoken goes, everyone who voted for the Greens did so thinking they were to go into government with FG and Labour or not at all. That is what they led people to believe during the campaigning! They have now shown themselves to be just another power hungry political party and I’m not surprised.
From a career point of view it’s a no win situation for the Greens. If they turned down the chance to go into government then they would be a small time party who’ll never be in a position to implement their policies so what’s the point in voting for them. If they do go into government then they are just another power hungry political party who can’t be trusted and what’s the point in voting for them.
Their only hope now is to implement enough of their policies to make their supporters glad they went into government. I don’t believe they’ll be able to do it but only time will tell…
June 17th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
I agree with a lot of our coment Eoin, except that they could have held out and taken the next years to establish themselves as the ‘real’ opposition. PD’s could be in their death throes, FG are for all intents and purposes seen as politically only marginaly different to FF so there may have been a genuine opportunity for a party such as the Greens who are seen as different but also have some kind of potential in their following… particularly as there is a genuine, albeit slow, move toward addressing the public’s concern with matters environmental. And if bertie was to finally get his come-uppance, and the teflon finally wore through, there might have been even more room to grow. That’s not a no-win situation, it’s just cashing in now for what you can get. The wrong decision? Fuck it, I don’t know, but I don’t agree with it.
June 17th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
It’s FG versus FF in this country Frank, and I don’t think anything is going to change that for a long time to come. A party like the Greens has to take an opportunity like this if they are ever going to make any real changes. I wonder if they can make any changes though?
June 18th, 2007 at 6:21 am
The thing about achieving anything in this life of ours especially an ideology is that you have to be prepared to wait… you don’t make ur move until the timing, environment and circumstances are perfect- or at least conducive- for you to actually achieve.
I’m afraid what the greens have done is the political equivalent of a premature ejaculation.
They showed a lack of maturity and a serious political naivety. They needed to wait till they were a valuable part of a willing government. Ask this question; what if the greens pull out of government when we finally prove that Berite is a bloody crook? Nothing…nothing happens because he’ll still have a majority, so they have nothing to hold over FF… No “in case of emergency break glass� plan. They are stuck. Fucked by electoral math.
FF will swallow them up and spit them out before the next election. They will allow Green and for that matter PD ministers to make any and all unpopular policy decisions over the next few yrs.
For example, people actually blame Mary Harney personally for the condition of the health service. I don’t mean hold her accountable as a minister; I don’t mean that people are critical of her performance as head of department… I mean they fucking hate her guts, personally and passionately and seriously blame her for all that is wrong with the HSE… In such a way that would make one think all was just fine and dandy before she took over and actually started to tackle the issues head on. Issues that the previous FF minister failed to do least he upset the lobby groups who really run this country when we have an FF Taoiseach.
Which brings me to another bone of contention… in the last government we had a minister and two FF TD’s in Cork South Central, fuck all good they were…?
Airport debt, maternity hospital debacle and not one NRA major roads project (two promised fly-over’s to complete the south link road no closer to STARTING!) An incinerator that no one wants being built in Ringaskiddy… So, no I don’t think we’re missing out with Dan Boyle not getting a seat at Bertie’s table. (I like Dan Boyle, I even gave him my top none FG preference)
What this country needs is for FG to get the finger out and develop a clear vision for a different, more prosperous Ireland. An Ireland that looks after all of its citizen and visitors fairly. Where no one is overly burdened because they work hard and are well compensated, where it is worth while for entrepreneur’s to set up indigenous industries and compete on the world stage. Where the poor and needy are looked after and set up so they can look after themselves. Where our farming sector is paid a fair price for their produce and encouraged to work with the eco system and the market. Where our fishermen can make a living and preserve the stock for future generations. Where everyone can get educated to the highest level they can achieve and then make a valuable contribution to a knowledge based economy… where you can get a bed if u need one in hospital, you can see a GP to get fixed up quickly if your four year old is running a fever at four in the morning on a Saturday. FF wont deliver this… they’ve had ten years, ten years of rising house prices which have fuelled ordinary Irelands lust for BMW’s, SUV’s, foreign holidays and even more expensive foreign properties! And for the promise of false wealth through equity release the country is will to over look MRSA, waiting lists for operations, carnage on shit roads without enforcement of traffic laws, even more lost to suicide, stealth taxes, rat infested schools, robbing the old of their pensions, the highest working week in the EU, the highest level of personal indebtedness in the EU and hundreds of thousands of children living at or below a standard which we call the poverty line.
Its not just the greens that have a price… we all have.
And the country will pay. As will the Greens.
But its not the peoples fault, its not the Greens fault, its not even FF’s fault. As far as I’m concerned it’s all FG and to a lesser extent Labours fault.
To use a sporting analogy, when Roman Ambramovic (forgive the attempt at spelling) bought Ch€£$ki he upped the standard of the whole premiership. All of a sudden Man U (Equally evil as FF in my books) and Liverpool and Arsenal had to up their own standard to compete. They couldn’t for a while but now they are catching up. That’s what FG has to do. Up the stakes, make it so the people can’t help vote for their better policies… and then implement them!
As for the greens, they’ll be lucky to have 3 seats next time out. I might take them years to get back to where they are now. And no, I don’t think they’ll achieve anything.
June 18th, 2007 at 9:26 am
Timing is indeed everything in life, but you also have to seize the opportunities when they arise. The Green’s picked up a little in this last election and suddenly found themselves in a position where they could go into government. If they turned that down would they really have picked up as many votes the next time out? I don’t think so.
In this country people go with the ‘devil they know’ and then rotate the smaller parties to be the ‘watchdogs’. If the Greens had turned down the invitation to be ‘watchdogs’ I believe the voting public would have said “fine, no point voting for them.”
With FG not winning this election I don’t see them winning an election for another 10-15 years. Therefore to achieve anything the Greens had to form a Government with FF sooner or later.
My problem with it is that they made foolish promises not to go into government with FF during the election. I believe it is these promises that are the foolish part of all this, not the going into Government. Sure they’ll get the blame for everything but they’d get the blame for not going into government as well.
Until the voters wake up and realise that they themselves are to blame for the state of the country nothing will change. Seriously, how many of us asked any difficult questions when the politicians came to the door? How many of us voted FF?
Unless the voters demand change, no change will come.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
My point being, and Dave’s I think, is that now if and when the voters demand change, it is unlikely the Greens will be there to affect said change.
They will have lost support due to their recent move and quite likely have been swallowed up and spit out by FF (as dave puts it).
I think I’d have to agree with Dave’s premature ejaculation comment.
The green’s would have seved as better watchdogs from the outside - who trusts a watchdog who accepts the crumbs from the thiefs table?
June 18th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
I just don’t get this “watchdog” “opposition” thing at all. There is sweet fuck all you can do in opposition accept bark and whine….and thats just really annoying most of the time….
As to how the Greens do next time …that will all depend on performance…
If they lose any vote it will only be the idealists and fanatics and they dont number enough to make any difference. Right now they have put themselves in a position to make gains on the mainstream vote and with that real opportunity…
As to the purity of their vision, life is about compromise and you just have to suck it up sometimes if you want to get anywhere at all.
Dave…In all fairness, you don’t expect us to read all that do you !
June 18th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
First off, I read all of Dave’s comment and it’s worth a read! If he ever gets his campaign off the ground I’d back him as I’d like to see things work the way he says they should.
Frank, as Rich said, you can’t do much in opposition. Being watchdogs from the outside worked so well last time!
The comments that yourself and Dave are putting up make sense but they are coming from a point of view that assumes the Greens will fail in government. It’s hard to think anything else, but in making the decision the Green’s have to believe they can succeed. After all, what’s the point in running if you don’t think you could succeed in government.
“who trusts a watchdog who accepts the crumbs from the thiefs table?” That’s politics I’m afraid! Show me the table without a thief?
June 18th, 2007 at 11:42 pm
Eoin,
I hope you’re wrong about FG not winning an election for 10-15 yrs… At that rate I could be next FG Taoiseach! A scary thought… I’d have some mess to sort out at that stage.
I know what you are saying about the greens taking they’re chances when they come up but in all honestly you cannot think that they can tame FF.
It’s all about the maths. To be in a position to really manage FF you would have to have enough seats to cause a collapse in government if you pull out… 90-6 = 84… Still a majority. So the only reason Bertie brought them in was to act as a buffer and as scape goats for the impending down turn in the economy etc… Just like they used the PD’s last time out.
June 19th, 2007 at 12:10 am
Maybe I should put a bet on you being the next FG Taoiseach? I don’t believe that Enda Kenny can win an election and if he’s going to be the leader in 5 years time then it could well be 10 years before FG wins another election. I believe that FF will be at their weakest at the next election IF Bertie sticks to his promise and leaves when he’s 60. The next leader won’t have been given enough time to prove himself. If Kenny is the leader then it will be a big let off for FF and will allow them to put up a tried and tested leader in 10 years time. That would make it 15 years to the next FG win. A lot of ifs there but that’s where that comment is coming from.
I don’t believe that the Greens can tame FF, but then I wouldn’t run for election as part of the Green party. What I’m trying to do is explain why the Greens made the decision they made. Someone who did run must believe they can do the job. Right?
I agree that the FF plan is to ‘blame it on the Greeny’, but the Greens can stop that happening to themselves and that in itself would be a victory!
June 19th, 2007 at 5:26 am
I reckon you’d get savage odds… twould be worth 50cent each way (and I’d promise to do all in my power to get a win for u!)
I think you are spot on with regard to running and believing in ones ability to do things better than the other guy (or gal) but- and I’ll leave it at this- one of us will be saying “I told you so” in a few years time when discussing the performance and health of the Greens.
What happens in the next election between the big two will depend again largely on the leaders, Biffo is even less popular than Enda (frightening thought!) but someone like Michael Martin could cause upset too… too many ifs to start guessing at this early stage I reckon.
If it was up to me… and who knows, it might be, we would conduct a campaign without ever mentioning FF, their people or their “policies”. We need to run our own campaign and it must be simply better in every way than everyone else’s!
Hope tonights installment isn’t too long Rich!
June 19th, 2007 at 9:22 am
Just managed it Dave…I just scraped into generation X you know….my concentration span is not the best !
June 28th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
[...] Welcome aboard Dave! Dave has been commenting on political posts in particular here on BifSniff for quite some time now. You might remember him from such posts as Redefining Honour, We got it wrong. Can we have another go?, and of course the classic Vote to minimise ethnic and racial differences in ireland which got 92 comments. [...]