Vote to minimise ethnic and racial differences in ireland.
May 2nd, 2007 by Frank
A discussion we were having went off on a tangent into immigration policy and now I’m very curious about what others feel.
The Immigration Control Platform was linked to, and I read some of their material and was amazed – I can’t understand how anyone would consider voting for people who state the following:
Immigration policy should be framed solely from the viewpoint of the needs of the receiving state.
‘Solely’ being my sticking point here, any balanced policy should take the needs of the countries of origin and the imigrants themselves as well as the receiving state.
it would be the position of I.C.P. that labour market immigration should tend as far as possible to be such as would minimize rather than maximize ethnic and racial differences.
I repeat ‘minimize rather than maximize ethnic and racial differences’.
If there is to be preferential treatment for countries with traditional links with Ireland, this should specifically not include countries where that link is primarily missionary or aid activity. This is particularly important if such reference is to appear in the legislation.
Where there is already a preponderance of any ethnic grouping in the State (legally, illegally or semi-legally) as with e.g. Chinese and Nigerians further immigration from such areas should be disallowed. Such an ethnic community when well-established is a focus for further immigration, including illegal.
I have no idea what the function of the first paragraph is, surely policy should be based on immigration issues which in turn could impact on countries receiving aid, but what is the function of excluding countries for preferential treatment solely because they receive aid from us? If a country is receiving aid from us and has a high level of educated and skilled workers why would we deny them preferential treatment? What’s behind this I wonder?
And what criteria are going to be in place to decide we have enough Nigerians or Chinese in the state and we should close the door to them? It’s insane.
Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests inferior to the needs of the state, and seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on ethnic, religious, cultural, or racial attributes.
My emphasis.
Apart from the discussion we had on the other post, a few other people I spoke to felt that not enough discussion about immigration was happening. But Enda Kenny did call for debate on the issue, and he gave a good speech on it. Read the Enda Kenny speech on immigration and supporting material – it discusses a lot of the issues in a much more balanced and rational form.
I also found the Green Party’s Immigration Policy which also goes through a lot of the issues in a very clear and rational manner.
I found the Green Party policy to be a good read, and would urge anyone concerned about immigration to read it.
Ted Neville, Cork South Central and John Donnelly, Dublin North are the Immigration Control Platform Candidates. Let’s find as many viable alternatives to these candidates as possible, so that those concerned with immigration can vote for someone worth giving a vote to.
Anyone have any other suggestions other than Greens and FG?
Entries (RSS)
May 2nd, 2007 at 4:58 pm
And the Green party advocates tha Australian model which works on the basis that the higher skilled be given preferance, which means pretty much that ‘Immigration policy should be framed solely from the viewpoint of the needs of the receiving state.’
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:04 pm
No it doesn’t Ed, not from my reading of it. It advocates examining policies from countries who have tackled immigration policies and cherry picking the parts of their policies that worked.
Quote:
“A suitably broad framework for policy development is needed which will incorporate the human rights and socio-economic concerns of migrants and recognise the value of cultural diversity as well as balancing national security concerns.”
May 2nd, 2007 at 7:29 pm
2. Green Party policy responses
In Government the Green Party will introduce the following measures:
Learning from best practice
Introduce an Immigration System in Ireland based on best practice elsewhere (eg US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand). A new system would preferably be based on a points system that is fair and transparent, where the people with the most needed skills are given higher points and chosen first to get a visa, as happens in Canada. Other less skilled workers could be chosen as part of a lottery-based visa system such as applies in the US.
May 2nd, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Yes, exactly.
‘Based on best practice’, followed by reference to “US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand” and in the context of “A suitably broad framework for policy development is needed which will incorporate the human rights and socio-economic concerns of migrants and recognise the value of cultural diversity as well as balancing national security concerns.”
May 2nd, 2007 at 10:35 pm
John Donnelly is very odd looking indeed, that’s as far as I’m prepared to go.
May 3rd, 2007 at 12:08 am
‘Immigration policy should be framed solely from the viewpoint of the needs of the receiving state.’
I still don’t understand what you find so remarkable about that sentence Frank-it makes perfect sense to me and is a policy I would wholeheartedly support within the democratic, electoral process by voting for a candidate who espouses it. And that’s my right Frank, nothing you can do about it even with your disingenuous catch-calls of Fascism. Wikipedia-who writes that stuff anyway?
I don’t think immigration is serving the interests of the Irish people. On the contrary, I think it is harming workers’ interests through job displacement, placing a strain on public services and welfare and artificially keeping the housing market over-priced. There are other side effects, more abstract, such as the feeling of alienation mass immigration engenders in host communities, cultural dilution, and the overall tension and suspicion mass immigration invariably brings.
I believe we would be far better off if we avoided all these negative things-why take the risk, what’s in it for us? Better work on what we have, improving are own society, and God knows there’s a lot of improvements needed, rather than importing more problems. Just look at Britain, France, Germany or the USA for proof that multi-culturism is a failed notion.
Also, if skilled people are poached to come to a new country what is to become of the country they left? If we take all the doctors from India, all the nurses from the Phillipines, surely that only impoverishes those countries.
Now I’d like to hear the other side if the argument Frank-I’m open to other opinions. Can you list five positives about mass immigration for me? Or is the interest of your own state of secondary importance to you?
May 3rd, 2007 at 12:11 am
And what criteria are going to be in place to decide we have enough Nigerians or Chinese in the state and we should close the door to them? It’s insane.
Why is it insane Frank?
It would be insane not to limit numbers.
May 3rd, 2007 at 1:34 am
Martin, would you also recall all the Irish immigrants from the US and other countries?
May 3rd, 2007 at 11:17 am
Frank, when the irish arrived in america and oz and south africa they were not welcomed as a WONDERFUL new ethnic minority about which to have study groups about their AMAZING new culture they brought with them.nor were they issued with baby buggies and new houses and the racial equality board (peopled by a startling amount of women with moustaches )to listen and fight for to their every gripe .no they were used or chucked depending on the survival of the fittest. And they embraced the new cultiure they had arrived in and BECAME americans or ozzies etc.
thats the difference .There are whole communities in England who are 2nd or 3rd generation bangladeshi women who dont speak english.Dont tell me that they feel remotely close to the country they live in. Community Loyalty and social cohesion, without those simple things we are pretty much doomed and might as well hand ourselves over with our hands up to the nearest multinational corporation as they are really the ones needing all these cheap and dislocated humans .
May 3rd, 2007 at 11:20 am
Frank, Your above comment is bordering the absurd. I’m not dissapointed in you though.
May 3rd, 2007 at 11:30 am
Why is it absurd? If martin believes that immigration is not serving the interests of the Irish people and that multi-culturism is a failed notion doesn’t it stand to reason that he feels emigration would contribute to the same failures in other countries?
What’s good for the Goose and all that.
May 3rd, 2007 at 11:37 am
Jane, that’s an interesting comment and one I don’t have an answer for straight away.
I would have to do far more research into the issues that communities who do not adopt the language cause and suffer.
However, instinctively I would feel that the answer lies in sane immigration policy which deals with the issues of integration.
I never thought I’d quote Enda Kenny, but:
“Immigrants have rights and responsibilities. They should have the right to be free of discrimination and have their contribution to the country recognised, but they have the responsibility to integrate into our community, comply with our laws and respect our cultural traditions. I do not want to see a situation developing in which our immigrant population live separate lives. We have a responsibility to facilitate and encourage this integration.”
May 3rd, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Come on Frank, stop waffling, 5 good positve things immigration brings to a society.
Well said Jane.
May 3rd, 2007 at 1:18 pm
I would have to do far more research into the issues that communities who do not adopt the language cause and suffer.
Frank, you’re deluded-this idea of immigrants suffering, that’s rubbish. This bleeding heart mentality that we must help them, total madness. They’re having a laugh Frank, taking the proverbial. Taking housing, health care, etc. Have you ever walked through a predominately immigrant area in any European country? There is no intergration-linguistic or cultural. There’s nothing but an uneasy tension waiting to flare up as it did in Paris a few years ago and in London on 7/7.
Now how vivid an example do you need that immigration doesn’t work when immigrants, second generation even, despise you so much after you’ve given them everything, including the oppurtunity to out-breed you through welfare, turn around and want to blow you up.
May 3rd, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Martin, I’m sorry but I’m not going to answer that question, because I don’t think I could do justice to the question in five points in the time I can afford to give to it.
However, I will mention the widely acknowledged fact that without immigration we would not have been able to build our economy to the point it’s at currently.
As I have mixed feelings about our economy, I should emphasise that this is in response to a certain ‘have my cake and eat it’ attitude I get from people (not people discussing here) where they don’t want immigrants benefitting from our new found affluence without acknowledging that without immigrants it would have been very difficult to build the economy the way we did.
“The growth in immigration has been an essential component of Ireland’s economic success. In fact, it has had a direct impact on our economic growth with the ERSI estimating that immigration added at least 3% to GNP growth over the period 1993 to 2003.”
May 3rd, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Martin, I have to assume you’re playing devil’s advocate in the interests of furthering debate, because otherwise you’re just talking bollocks.
May 3rd, 2007 at 1:47 pm
A dubious claim. The economy is importing consumers on a mass scale, of course that gives a filip to GDP figures, for a while. However, in the long term immigration costs money. Have alook at this article from the migrationwatch.org website
http://www.migrationwatch.org/papers/p_scotsman_23may06.asp
Added at least 3% to GNP from 1993 to 2003, what does that mean? Roughly a Mars Bar a month you may have heard recently from a British academic.
May 3rd, 2007 at 1:59 pm
That ‘article’ isn’t exactly inspiring Martin, some bloke bandying about some facts and figures in a VERY loosely affiliated fashion… if he does have a point, he hasn’t made it convincingly there.
May 3rd, 2007 at 2:38 pm
I’m just back from a lovely ol walk on Courtmacsheery head where I saw porpoises. With me was an immigrant whom I am to marry.
Since she reached our shores she has worked hard, paid tax, learned the history of our country and become a respected teacher of Painting and Drawing. She didn’t come here to make a fast buck from our economy but to put down roots after being run from her own country.
She recieved nothing from the state because she believes in doing things for herself.
She is of European extraction. She cares for the European mode of thought, it’s institutuions and heritage. She sees it under threat, as she has seen it eradicated from the continent that she was born. It annoys her to see other Europeans quite willing to throw all this away for the vacous (and temporary) notion of Equality an multi-culturalism. She has an understanding and respect for other cultures but can also see the inherant rotteness in some of them and it defies logic to allow the worse elemnts of these other cultures flourish on our shores.
May 3rd, 2007 at 3:13 pm
I feel like I’m getting mixed messages from you Ed. Are you against multiculturalism or just feel strongly about immigrants who refuse to engage with the receiving state except to take advantage?
Or is it that the latter has resulted in the former?
A sensible Immigration Policy can tackle many of the issues of the latter.
The former is a different story altogether.
Our immigration policies are all over the gaff at the moment and somebody needs to sort it out. Not ICP though. Not on my watch
May 3rd, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Frank, it was pointed out at the start that thew ICP have no chance anyway so no need to worry, yet.
I feel very strongly on the latter. The former we have already discussed.
Did I ever tell you the story of when I tried to make a documentary about this subject and was kicked out of Trinity college for asking ‘Akward questions.’ ?
A Sociology professor who hails from Israel told me I was racist for asking whether Ireland could find itself in the same situation as the U.K where some cities are already majority minority (if you know what I mean) It was apparently racist to even spot the difference. This woman proceeded to tell me (all of which I have on tape but cannot show in public) Firstly, that there was no such thing as ‘Irishness’ and secondly, that we were well underpopulated and should learn from Israel and Holland how to manage larger populations. She then explained that ireland, and all Europe should have no border policy at all but let a free flow of poulations that would self regulate. This woman dominates her field and informs OUR government policy.
She proceeded to phone my LIBERAL college and tell them that they had a dangerous student on their hands. My college called me in front of a panel and advised me to drop my project.
This, Frank, was my awakening. This is when I realised that ‘Liberal Fasicm’ is no abstract notion.
May 3rd, 2007 at 4:09 pm
If a free flow of populations that would self regulate was feasible I’d be in favour of it.
Not saying it is feasible you understand.
I can see how some of your views could have you mistaken for a racist Ed. I know you not to be, but then I know you better than someone you would be interviewing.
Of course, the sane thing would have been to let you make your documentary and then judge it’s merits. I’d like to have seen it, then I might understand your views better.
May 3rd, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Why is it Frank you keep saying anything I say is bollocks? I never say anything that you say is bollocks even though you’re the one talking bollocks but I wouldn’t say you’re talking bollocks because I have respect for people with different views as myself. Stop lowering the tone of your own blog by talking bollocks.
Here, in full, is the article about the Mars Bar a Month although you’ll probably turn around and tell me I’m talking bollocks even though I asked you not to be saying what I say is bollocks even you though you’re the one who’s always talking bollocks and I never say you’re talking bollocks.
January 3, 2007
Immigration Benefit ‘Equivalent to a Mars bar a Month’
New figures out today reveal that, on the Government’s own figures, the benefit to each member of the native population of the UK from immigration is worth about 4p a week – or less than the equivalent of a small Mars bar a month.
In an analysis of a series of reports on the economic impact of immigration on the UK think-tank Migrationwatch has found that overall the much vaunted contribution of immigrants to the economy is very slight indeed – a finding that coincides with the results of major studies around the world. (see report)
‘The Government seek to present the record immigration levels as being nothing but good news for the host community as a means of deflecting attention from some of the many problems it is causing and to neutralise the deep public disquiet they know is out there,’ said Sir Andrew Green, chairman of Migrationwatch. ‘Of course many immigrants make a useful contribution to the economy but taken in total the economic benefit is at best marginal.
‘The main beneficiaries are the immigrants themselves who are able to send home about £10 million a day, not the host nation,’ he said.
Sir Andrew said that while the supporters of mass immigration were adept at publicising the ‘benefits,’ they studiously avoided the many downsides that result, such as the pressure on an already overburdened infrastructure, housing, health and schools as well as an increasing impact on employment and added strains on community cohesion.
The analysis shows that in the short term any benefit to the host population will depend on the distribution of income (and therefore Tax). For example, if immigrants pay more in tax than they receive in benefits, the host population will be better off.
A number of attempts have been made to measure this fiscal effect. The government’s first effort which showed a net benefit of £2.5bn was based on a year in which the budget was in surplus so everybody was making a positive fiscal contribution. This study was superseded by an IPPR study which also showed a positive contribution. However the result was distorted by the inclusion of all children of mixed households (one parent an immigrant, the other not) in the host community. Correcting for this by splitting the cost of these children 50/50 produced a small negative outcome
Migrationwatch also reviewed the National Institute Economic Review No 198, the government’s own calculations, an ITEM club report plus major studies in America, Canada and Holland.
‘Although they used different methodologies they all point in the same direction – namely, that the benefit of large scale immigration in terms of GDP per head is minimal. Indeed, all major studies of large-scale immigration involving mixed levels of skills, such as we have in the U. K., find that its net effect is very small in comparison to GDP. If we are to have the mature and thorough debate that Ministers have been calling for let us start off with an honest and realistic assessment of the costs and benefits of the highest levels of immigration in our history,’ said Sir Andrew.
May 3rd, 2007 at 9:43 pm
Firstly:
“Why is it Frank you keep saying anything I say is bollocks? ”
Don’t exaggerate martin, i call Bollocks when I think you’re talking bollocks. I discuss points with you when I think you’re not. I’m not a politician in the public eye who has to watch his mouth, and if I feel your talking bollocks I’ll say so.
Secondly, that’s an interesting article – but it’s just numbers to me. What, I wonder is the benefit to each member of the native population of the UK from a similar number of other natives? And what figure would you deem an acceptable one? 10 mars bars? 20 mars bars? A lifetime supply of mars bars?
May 4th, 2007 at 12:02 am
Guys,
Interesting discussion going on…
Firstly Martin – show me one instance in human history where economists have got it right (a prediction not a review, they’re all amazing with hindsight.)
It is the least accurate of all the sciences (and as an engineer that is high insult!) Anything written by any economist can and will be dismissed by ten other economists in a matter of nano seconds. None of these contradicting economists will agree!
One must be especially careful of Economic reports written by interest groups after all an organisation called migration watch can really only be an antidote to the above mentioned racial equality board! An organisation which must state on every page of their web site that they are not political has most certainly got a political agenda.
Anyone who uses the example of mars bars in an article must not be taken seriously. They are aiming to incite the un-educated and un/ill-informed using tabloid style rhetoric that can be easily thrown about the pub or the building sight.
So in summary you are talking bollocks or at least you are regurgitating bollocks.
The English are in the sh1t because they took over half the world, raped countries of their natural resources for short term gain and then invited everyone over to stay! They are not the ones to be following in this instance. They same can be said for much of Europe. We need to learn from their mistakes and put things into the Irish context. We are a young and developing country and economy.
We have a duty to ourselves and our generations to come to hand over that economy and country in a better condition than we received it. To that end we need to import skilled and unskilled labour as required.
Equally we have a moral duty as global citizens and as a wealthy nation to help those in need if and when we can.
We need to do both of these things and to do so effectively we need to have a plan in place that is respectful to ourselves and to those who will come here through necessity and by choice.
It is I feel also worth noting that the largest groups living here now are all from EU member states and are fully entitled to do so. Any state benefit they can claim here can be claimed in their country by you or I should we decide to reverse the trend. We have benefited so much from our membership of the EU I think it is time we took our turn to give a little back. Begrudgery has to be one of the worst of all Irish traits and it is oh so evident in some of the rubbish being spouted here and elsewhere with regard to the immigration problem.
Go on ahead if you want to waste your vote on a single issue (and a bad issue at that) party. But do me one favour… Over the lifetime of the next government please don’t complain about one single issue in this country because you will have done nothing in the ballot box to improve the situation
May 4th, 2007 at 1:17 am
‘They are aiming to incite the un-educated and un/ill-informed using tabloid style rhetoric that can be easily thrown about the pub or the building sight.’
You classist bastard!
May 4th, 2007 at 1:19 am
Good come back… well thought out and hard to argue with. Well done
May 4th, 2007 at 2:09 am
How can anyone take seriously someone you makes the sort of statement you just made there Dave? You’ve exposed yourself badly there. You should tell Frank about quoting economists and what bad science it is. And thanks for your quick, entirely spontaneous, not-at-all thought out of manifesto; it was really refreshing to read something original and authentic on the subject.
May 4th, 2007 at 3:54 am
How do I come across racist Frank? I’m actually curious.
It’s a funny term, a bit like ‘anti-semitism’ it can have many meanings (please dont look up wikipedia) depending on how it is employed.
I believe in a predominantly western ‘white’ Europe. Does that make me racist?
I believe Africans tend to make bad Governments. Is that racist?
I believe that Jewish Zionists have too much power in the U.S. Is that racist?
I dont like Romanian Gypsies, in general. I dont like their whining mannerisms, their false smiles, their thievery, their lack of consideration for anyone else. I think Ireland has made a mistake in allowing them entry (we have our own variety to cherish!.)
I treat each person I meet as an individual and judge them on their personal merit, not race or religion or skin colour or penis size.
If the answer to the above questions are yes, then perhaps I must admit that I am a racist. The question then is (1) should I seek counsilling or psychotherepy? (2) Can society make room for me as someone with such views, but does not believe in violence in any form?
It makes sense to me why you would seem to side with the sociolologist. I find it sa and somewhat disturbing, and if I am a racist, then I would rather that label than someone as insane as to believe in a no borders policy.
I’m afraid you cant see my documentary Frank, because my LIBERAL college asked me to drop it and being young and in a corner I did so. You didn’t seem to grasp the point of my story.
May 4th, 2007 at 4:08 am
Dave,
You also seem to misunderstand. I am not talking about E.U. immigration.
You are being daft to say I am wasting my vote on a single issue and arrogant to ask me to never complain about anythng else. I’ve a lot to fucking complain about and I’ll complain when I want, as loud as I want and as often as I want. Just because none of the major political parties deal with any of the issues I care about in any real way does not mean I have to keep my mouth shut.
You sound like some-one from the Fianna Gael student society. (and I dont do them any favours)
May 4th, 2007 at 9:37 am
Ed. Reread my comment. It’s you who have misunderstood.
May 4th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Martin, what’s your actual problem with what Dave said? The Mars bar thing is deliberately sensationalist and not framed in any relevant structure which would lend it credence, as I tried to point out in my previous comment on it.
Of course, you didn’t answer how many mars bars would make you happy.
May 4th, 2007 at 10:17 am
You seem to be able not to answer either Martin or my questions Frank, and you admitted to having none for Jane, maybe you should run for government!
Would you vote for this party?
T.U.P.P.I (The Upstanding People’s Party of Ireland)
Manifesto:
T.U.P.P.I is a party for Irish people with a sense of decency, Honour, Pride and honesty. it is for those dissillusioned with the schmooze and schmarm of the main parties.
It believes in taking all that is good from our past and eradicating all that was bad. It intends to alter the path towards social decay and moral decline of Ireland.
We will put an end to Gombeenism, corporate bullying, morally decadent broadcasting (I know you’ll have a problem with that Frank, but in reality it means putting shite like sex in the city and the L word on after the kiddies have gone to bed)
We will make it a crime to sexualise children, advertise to them or attempt to steer them in any way by companies seeking profit.
We will promote traditional family values, and while recognising that their are more than one type of family, we will place the one mummy, one daddy and several kids at the forefront.
We will tackle drugs, sex slave trades, illegal immigrant rings with a force that fully enables us to eradicate them.
we will accept genuine refugees after first screening them for diseases.
We will aceept a limmited and monitored number of economic migrants, who can gain full citizenship after 10 years.
We will curtail non E.U. immigration for the time being. We want to see the full outcome of what we have already commited to.
We will make it very difficult for developers to knock any building over 200 years to make room for apartments. Bars may be sold but the license remains. we will tackle booze culture where it matters. on patrick street on friday nights.
Police will have full powers to pull young people who disrespect them or the area they inhabit.
May 4th, 2007 at 10:43 am
Martin.
Given that you have made no effort to actually comment on anything I said, failed to spot that I was using the same style of tabloid rhetoric in my comment on the uneducated and ill-informed to emphasise my point about how words can skew peoples views and that you have made two personal attacks on me calling me a “classist bastard� (I happen to know my father he is a very decent and hard working chap who provided well for me) I don’t think I’ll bother responding to your comments – unless you grow up, read what I wrote in its entirety and comment on the content.
Ed,
Firstly well spotted on the party alignment! I am however well past student life.
Every major political party has its views and strategies for dealing with the immigration issue. The reason, in my opinion, that your views are not echoed in the Dail chamber and that the issues are not dealt with in any real way is a complex one. Even if one or two guys from this ICP are any other single issue party/platform get in there is nothing going to change. Our next government will be made up of one of the big two parties and one or more smaller ones. If FF gets back in then some of the Independent FF guys –the likes of Jackie Healy Rae- might be able to hold the government to ransom again like they did with the previous one. However this is only good for getting a few roads done or getting a sports hall for the local school, not for reforming the countries immigration policy or any other policy for that matter.
So vote for who ever you like, complain as loud and when ever you like… just don’t expect anything to change.
As an aside and an example of the point I’m trying to make…. Does anyone know what Kathy Sinnot has done for people with disabilities etc since getting into the EU parliament?
May 4th, 2007 at 10:56 am
That’s so depressing. I simply cannot vote for Kenny. I dont like the look of him. I know that sounds terrible but it’s how my mum operates and strangely she’s usually right. I would like to see FF out very much. ICP is a kind of protest vote.
I thought you were going to rip me to shred there. Phew! I actually know bugger all about politics.
May 4th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Besides, why can our Government not tackle a complex issue?
May 4th, 2007 at 11:19 am
Maybe not the best way to decide on how you vote : )… but at least you plan on voting!
I don’t wana turn this into a party political broadcast or a canvass; this is not the place…
Labour, the greens… It kills me to say it even the PD’s or the shiners, will have a much greater chance of actually tackling issues and getting stuff done. Quiz the candidates at the door as Frank said many moons ago. If none of them meet your liking than at least you can say to the likes of me (not that you have to justify yourself you anyone) that you looked hard at the options and were disappointed!
As for Enda K… great organiser and manager, he has brought FG a long way in the last 5 yrs. I think he has personality issues but at the moment we have a Taoiseach with a great character, buckets of “personality� and all of the problems that brings!
I gotta run for now but I’ll get back to you on your last question later today.
May 4th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
Ed, this has been a great discussion so far, but it was never my intention to stay chained to my keyboard answering every question that comes into your head – nor did I at any point claim to have answers for anyone on any of these matters.
These are complex issues and most of them I have not considered in any detail until this discussion.
I have discussed items I have opinions on and I have not answered complex questions which I feel would not be beneficial to give a two minute pop quiz answers on.
On TUPPI – there are a lot of points outlined in your ‘manifesto’ that I would be in agreement with, some of them I would be suspicious about and others I would need to see the full policy documents for.
So in short, form the party, write the policies and then I’ll tell you if you’d get my vote.
May 4th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
I was only intrested in the racism bit actually. I dont fancy being tied to a keyboard either but it’s actually the first time ive been able to have this discussion in a rational space. Now im off to document some more of our declining heritage!
May 4th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Ed, your questions were based on your misreading one of my comments, as they were founded on a misunderstanding I thought it would be a waste of time to answer…
How’s the project going? I’m really looking forward to it, I hope you’re lashing through it.
May 4th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
If it’s of interest to you, I don’t think you’re a racist. But that’s based on my knowing you.
If I was to base my judgment solely on this statement: ‘I dont like Romanian Gypsies, in general’ then I would certainly have to wonder.
I had to laugh at ‘I believe Africans tend to make bad Governments’, you also believe the Irish make bad Governments I assume.
As for the Jewish Zionists, let’s leave that for another day. I’m worn out.
May 4th, 2007 at 8:35 pm
Dave, I read your article and I commented on it above. What more do you want me to say? You imply that only educated people have the right to have political views and opinions. You disparage a sizeable section of society with your comments which is ironic because these very people you patronise will be the ones feeling the brunt of immigration through wage cuts and job displacement while you continue you spout your inane drivel from afar, telling those very people how they should think.
And what’s this about me failing to notice you engaged the same rhetoric employed by tabloids business about? Am I supposed to decode your contributions here on this board for deeper, contextualised meanings? If you’ve something to say then spit it out man. But that’s the exactly the point with your article; for so much typing you say very little. It’s cant and reads, despite your protestations, like a well rehearsed party- political broadcast.
And just for the record Dave, no personal slur was intended by my initial reaction to your post-I was trying to be funny-a fact, I think, you recognised yourself in your follow up comment.
Since you’ve declared yourself as being politically involved Dave allow me to offer my own views on your party coming up to the election. Maybe they’ll be useful to you back at party headquarters. I actually like Enda Kenny. I think he has values and would welcome him as next Taoiseach. However your candidates here in Cork South Central do not appeal to me at all and I’ll find it hard to give any of them a vote.
You’re running two nepotists, scions of political big houses-one male, one female-and then one completely unknown. In Simon Coveney’s case I don’t think TD’s should be allowed to be concurrent MEPs or senators; Deirde Clune is very uncharismatic, comes across as false and made a hames of things when questioned by Vincent Browne on how much money she intends to spend on her campaign. Jerry Buttimer, in fairness to him, is hungry, he was the first to call to the door a couple of weeks back but he’s too much of an unknown quantity for me to give him a higher preference vote. Why can’t you come up with better candidates than those three? Why three candidates in the first place? And what’s with those terrible posters? Why the strange skin tones and all the airbrushing?
Frank, what’s sensationalist about using everyday analogies to make clear the costs immigration place on a national economy? It’s something people can gauge and relate to. Every time I offer some well researched article to back up an argument of mine you dismiss it as bollocks (I predicted that though, didn’t I) and any time I ask you a question you avoid answering it.
May 5th, 2007 at 12:01 am
Martin,
Allow me to clear up my point and put it into simple unambiguous terms… You can’t believe everything you read form so called think tanks or interest groups.
They do prey on the concerns of the “working class� people by cherry picking facts and putting them into print in a sensationalist manner and like it or not those who read tabloid newspapers are generally not doing significant research to cure cancer! This does not mean that their opinion is any less important. They have one vote just like me.
For the record I am a PAYE worker in the manufacturing sector so I’m right there with those who you seem so concerned for. Far from spouting inane drivel from a far I am facing the loss of my job over the next few years as the company I work for relocate to some low cost location. Meanwhile I’m left with a huge mortgage and a real possibility of being basically… well fucked I suppose. So you’re fairly far from the mark in your assessment of where I’m coming from.
The difference is, and this is only my opinion, that I can see through the bullshit stats and “facts� put out there about how much and what the waves of immigrants hitting our shores are getting. In all fairness does anyone really know what anyone else is getting and why? And lets face we have plenty of sponging bastards in this country… buts that’s a whole other discussion.
Thanks for the promotion but it’s far from party HQ that I operate! I’m glad you like Enda, I’m glad we agree on something. I appreciate your opinions on the candidates we are running; I personally think you are right on a number of issues. In defence of Jerry Buttimer he is very well know in certain parts of the constituency and also through his weekly column in the Echo. He is, as you point out, very hungry and again in my opinion would make a fantastic TD for our area.
In the case of Simon Coveney he will be resigning his seat as an MEP if he retains his Dail seat. This duel mandating is no longer allowed and rightly so. As for the posters, I think it’s a printing issue and I think they’ll be replaced. The other issues were well beyond my control and/or influence!
If you have any other questions I’d be happy to answer them.
May 5th, 2007 at 1:57 am
I dunnoe Martin, I honestly feel that if you re-read my comments there are few enough questions I haven’t either addressed or explained why I am not answering.
May 5th, 2007 at 5:14 am
I don’t know Frank, it’s just sometimes I feel I might as well be banging my head against a brick wall as trying to talk sense to you.
Yes Dave, that’s the whole point-we have enough scroungers already, why do we want to import more. Society is in no way improving or evolving if demographics are drastically, inorganically altered. Old problems are not resolved but are exacerbated by new ones.
Everyone is promising a better health service but few realise that improvements owing to increased spending on health will be quickly negated by increased demands made by an increasing population. No-one except the ICP has called immigration as an issue. That’s very odd.
Dave, your precarious position is due to the free global movement of capital. More manufacturing jobs leading to increased export earnings need to be created in this country. Irish companies with well paid Irish workers first before diving to the bottom with an open doors policy the like of which Frank would like to see prevail. As the capital moves, so too must the labour.
May 5th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
You’re a gas man Martin.
“No-one except the ICP has called immigration as an issue.”
Enda Kenny, Fine Gael: “”I believe that immigration and multi-culturalism can be good for Ireland but the current system is not being managed well.”
The Green Party:
“Immigration is one of the most pressing political challenges for the international community today, and in particular for the developed countries of the West.”
Labour:
“The Leader of the Labour Party, Pat Rabbitte TD, has raised the issue of job displacement and immigration policy and whether, unless employment standards are maintained, there may be a need to manage migration through a new and reformed work permits regime.”
Maybe ICP are just the only ones you’re listening to Martin?
May 5th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Progressive Democrats:
“The deputy leader of the Progressive Democrats has called for a new department to look after immigration and integration issues.”
May 5th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Not in responce to any particular points here, just some stuff I found interesting follwing in the next few comments.
You need to login in Irish Times website to read full articles cited I’m afraid. Costs 2Euro for a 24hour pass.
May 5th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
by Fintan O’Toole
On its website, the Irish Immigration Centre says it is “concerned with the current anti-immigrant sentiment and the impact of recent immigration and welfare legislation on immigrants”. And it hopes to play a key role in efforts to create “a more positive climate for immigrants”. It has a drop-in centre which “offers new and established immigrants the opportunity to pursue their job-search in a friendly, supportive environment”.
[...]
The Irish Immigration Centre is in Boston. Its immigrants are our emigrants.
May 5th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Frank,
I think you are quite naive on many fronts.
(1) YOUR CORRELATION BETWEEN BAD IRISH GOVERNMENTS AND BAD AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS DISPLAYS A FUNDAMENTAL LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ON THE SUBJECT OF AFRICAN GOVERMENTS.
The Irish may misgovern and be corrupt, but this is nothing on the scale of many African states where real misery is experienced by many people.
(2) YOUR BELIEF THAT BECAUSE A PARTY SAYS SOMETHING MEANS THEY HAVE ANY INTENTION OF ACTING ON IT.
How long have FF been going on about tackling Health, Crime, Education etc?
(3) ASSUMING MY NOT LIKING ROMANIAN GYPSIES IN GENERAL IS RACIST.
I’m not fond of Australians either. It’s a cultural thing.
There’s nothing wrong with being naive, I can also be naive, it just means you will swallow poo easier.
May 5th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
Also to equate the immigration situation in America and Ireland is quite pointless.
May 5th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
by Karlin Lillington
One out of every four public, venture-backed companies founded since 1990 in the US has at least one immigrant founder, according to the report. And these companies, among them Sun Microsystems, Yahoo, eBay, Google and Intel, have a collective market capitalisation of an extraordinary $500 billion (€390 billion) and are responsible for 400,000 jobs globally (including thousands in Ireland).
[...]
Our narrow-minded immigration policies and the refusal to see the big immigration picture at every level throttles Ireland’s ability to compete and innovate. The failure to bring in long promised school programmes designed to deter racism and eradicate stereotypes. The failure to educate the public about who immigrants are, why they come here, what they want to do, what their own cultures are like. The disgusting failure of the majority of politicians to touch the immigrant issue in their own regions for fear of losing votes. The continued silent tolerance of intolerance.
If immigrants are so important, at the very high end level of company creation, to the enormous US economy, then only think how important they already are, and are going to be to our economic future, in our very small economy.
May 5th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
by Garret FitzGerald.
[...] the net contribution of eastern European workers to our economy must be even greater than that made by our own Irish workers, for in terms of housing and education costs these immigrants impose a very much lower burden on our taxpayers than does our own indigenous workforce.
[...]
In general, immigrants are well-educated; but because about three-quarters of them come from countries in which English is not the main language, some are forced to undertake, at least in the early stages, work that does not engage their skills. It would be very much to our advantage to ensure the provision to such immigrants of English language classes that would enable them to engage in work more appropriate to their educational level and professional capacity.
May 5th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
by Colm Keena
Research professor at the institute John FitzGerald [...] says that the institute had for some time in the 1990s been predicting a slowing of economic growth by 1999, for demographic reasons. However, the surprising amount of immigration into Ireland in the past number of years allowed the high levels of economic growth to persist.
May 5th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
by Alan Barrett
By identifying and quantifying the initial impacts of immigration, we showed how an overly liberal policy on immigration could lead to downward pressure on wages at a rate that would have been viewed as disruptive, even in the context of positive GNP impacts.
However, the potential longer-run impacts of immigration point to the potential value of a continuing, moderate rate of inflow.
May 5th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
I think I’ve had enough reading about immigration now.
Ed, I wish you wouldn’t misrepresent me through imprecise approximations of my responses, which must be caused either through failure to read my comments properly or a willful determination to apply a different meaning.
May 5th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
Jesus Christ man! You exsaperate me! First you put some quotes up by other folk rather than debate from your personal opinion, which is what we had been doing from the start and 2nd you keep on telling me i’m misrepresenting you. Maybe you didn’t say that you assumed me to be racist, I know you said you dont but you did say that it’d make you wonder which means in effect it probably is.
I’ve had enough of semantics now. Cheerio. P.s i still love you.
May 5th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Ed, my opinions as you have noticed, and been quick to jump on, are not fully formed. All this came from a simple reaction to the fact that I had enough opnions on the matter to know that ICP policies were not something I could support.
Hence all the reading of things like Enda kenny speeches and Green Party Policies and loads of Irish Times articles.
Excuse me if you didn’t want me to share my research with you, but it’s not like you have to read them if you don’t want. others might be interested in the same things I was.
Yup, you are well capable of noting where you have misrepresented me when you make the effort.
You know I love you too.
May 5th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
One last thing, That karl lillington is an eejit. The immigrants he is talking about are usually head hunted or lured by big cash, they are the brightest of the bright. We’re not exactly in the same situation here. America is a nation of immigrants, it is totally pointless to draw parallels.
Did you know you can buy crack cocaine from nigerians on Father matthew quay? check it out if you dont believe me. Crack devasted parts of london and now it is here. And Frank, dont tell me I’m stereotyping… I am speaking honestly, I am putting myself in an awkward situation by even saying it.
I dont see any of them setting up world class companies.
.’The failure to bring in long promised school programmes designed to deter racism and eradicate stereotypes.’
What a load of toss! Has any one looked at a national school kids curriculam these days? Every national scool gets visited by an African who teaches them how wonderfull african culture is.
In Britain they have gone so far down Karl’s little path of wonderfull tolerance that they now have realised that English kids have no pride in their country. Now they have to rebalance that. It’s totally insane. It is not redressing any imbalance, it is simply more one sided, ingenuine shite. Anything wrong in Africa is usually put down to European colonialism or , as Dave put it ‘Britain’s rape of the world’ This blame mentality must end or Africans will never face up to the real causes of their woes.
May 5th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Thanks for sharing the research. Honestly. I just regard a lot of it as pap, unfortunately. I’m a grouchy bastard when it comes to all this stuff, cos usually I’m on my own and constatntly feel i’ve my back to the wall… and like cornered wild animals….
May 5th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
Ed, I don’t know if you were able to read the whole of Karlin Lillingtons’s article, but it refutes your theory – here’s another quote:
————–
The report says: “Few of the immigrant entrepreneurs identified came to America ready to start a company capable of attracting venture capital. As the data, profiles, and interviews revealed, most entered the country either as children, teenagers, or graduate students, or were hired on H-1B visas to begin a first job while in their mid-twenties.”
————–
I can’t get involved in arguing the rest of your points with you Ed coz immigration policy would end up taking over my life.
If you assure me you can get crack cocaine from Nigerians on Father Mathew Quay, I don’t doubt you. But I don’t see it’s relevance to the discussion to be honest.
Crack dealers on Father Mathew Quay, or anywhere else , is an issue that should be dealt with by the our police force and justice system regardless of the race of the dealer.
I’m sure we have indigenous criminals who are not averse to crack dealing too.
Ed, I’m sorry you feel that you are on your own and that everybody I have quoted to date is spouting pap. I admire your conviction, and it’s not impossible that you are the only one who is right – I personally think that policy which was formed solely on the basis of your views would be too harsh and would lead toward a type of insular society I have no interest in.
That’s not to say you don’t make some good points, however, I think that ultimately a good immigration policy (for my leanings) will come from someone who is willing to take on board ALL sides of the argument and consider all the aspects of immigration before forming policy that is fair to all involved.
So yes, a real honest and open debate is needed from politicians. But let’s face it, the run up to an election is probably not the time. You can’t trust politicians not to skew their ‘views’ one way or the other to gain votes.
I do intend to use immigration as a doorstep litmus test on any canvassers that call though.
Anyway, let’s just hope (dream?) that the new government won’t shy away from the issue.
Maybe a post election examination of Michael McDowell’s Immigration Bill might kick things off.
I think I’m done talking about immigration for now. Carry on without me if you like!
May 6th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
‘If you assure me you can get crack cocaine from Nigerians on Father Mathew Quay, I don’t doubt you. But I don’t see it’s relevance to the discussion to be honest.’
Fair enough Frank, All in all I think you got off lightly and your comment above has shown that we will never see eye to eye on the matter. it will only become relevant to your life when it is too late to do anything about it. It is a misguided open-mindedness that will blinker you from seeing things as they really are.
To be totally in denial of relevance of ethnic origin is in my opinion foolhardy and dangerous, it is sweeping something under the carpet that will only rear it’s ugly head in the future.
It would be nice to believe that we are all the same and are capable of living in harmony but I’m afraid I think that that stuff only exists in Jehovah witness magazines.
May 7th, 2007 at 11:18 am
Native bumblebees under attack by foreign breeds, says Teagasc
May 7th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Once again the laws of nature render our debate completely useless!
May 8th, 2007 at 12:38 am
Superfluous maybe Ed, but by no means useless.
May 8th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
I knew it was the wrong word when I wrote it but Jane wasn’t around to proof read my work this time unfortunately.
May 15th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
I wish the immigration control platform (the best of luck) in this general election.
Immigration is a big issue to me in this years election. Theres too many foreigners in Ireland and no politician is willing to discuss immigration matters except the Immigration Control Platform election candidates.
As I am a Dublin central constituent, I will give the I.C.P my number one vote. I’ve had enough with being snubbed by Fine Gael/Labour/Greens etc anytime I brought up immigration to them when they came canvassing to my door. They ignored my concern on immigration and as a result, they will loose my vote for that very reason. If they choose not to listen to their constituents then they can expect to make losses.
I will now vote for the Immigration Control Platform.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:49 am
That makes me feel a little ill.
May 21st, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Well done Niamh, strangely most people are of the ‘Oh I couldn’t for them’ mentality. It takes a bit of gumption. Remember, It’s our politicians, not the immigrants themselves at fault.
May 22nd, 2007 at 11:24 pm
I am amused at people quoting statistics coming from ICP and Migrationwatch – both of these organisations are highly biased and their statistics are often both selective and taken entirely out of context. Debates about migrant workers and other immigrants in Ireland rarely ponder on the overall patterns of movement simply because we only measure those entering the country and applying for PPS numbers: we do not have any measure for how many have gone home, yet it would seem to be a significant figure, which may offset the overall impact of migration to Ireland.
Much of the problems existed long before Ireland because a net migration country, and if CSO studies and ESRI studies are reliable sources, a huge percentage (for exampe 60% in 1999, falling to around 24% last year) of ALL immigrations to Ireland is still returning Irish emmigrants. That in itself is food for thought. As somebody who once moved to London, signed on the dole, and noticed straight away that I was in almost all areas of life treated exactly the same as a native British citizen, I have to say that fair and reasonable migration policies work both ways. If we want to restrict Irish borders then we must accept the long term consequences of doing so as this will only encourage other countries to restrict policies.
Dave’s point here is the best argument I’ve yet heard for NOT voting for anti-migration morons “It is I feel also worth noting that the largest groups living here now are all from EU member states and are fully entitled to do so. Any state benefit they can claim here can be claimed in their country by you or I should we decide to reverse the trend. We have benefited so much from our membership of the EU I think it is time we took our turn to give a little back. Begrudgery has to be one of the worst of all Irish traits and it is oh so evident in some of the rubbish being spouted here and elsewhere with regard to the immigration problem.” What a breath of fresh air.
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:03 pm
They are obviously biased. That was a silly thing to say. You can talk numbers all day Laura, I generally find it better to use my eyes.
May 23rd, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Firstly Laura, thanks! Nice to get some positive feedback.
Why, Ed, is it silly to point out that these groups are biased? I don’t understand where you are coming from.
By using just your eyes without qualified and unbiased research figures from reputable bodies such as Laura mentioned taken in the context of the debate you are falling into the trap of racism and xenophobia.
I’ve been on a lots of door steps over the last few weeks and I could tell you a few things about the difference between our fellow citizens and our visitors and the differences there in!!! All you need to do is drive around the city and see all the eastern European lads working their nuts off on the roads, go get a take away or see who is cleaning the bathrooms in any factory/shopping centre or cinema?
Sorry for rambling… my point is this, most immigrants are making a valuable contribution –which we need- to our economy!
AND FOR CHRIST SAKE VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 23rd, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Niamh…. what are your concerns regarding immigration? All the parties have well laid out policies on immigration and if you cannot be bothered to look them up or listen to what they are when someone tells you then maybe its arguing about the issue you are really interested in.
May 24th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Dave,
Niamh outlined her problems quite well. Read it again.
‘I’ve had enough with being snubbed by Fine Gael/Labour/Greens etc anytime I brought up immigration to them when they came canvassing to my door. They ignored my concern on immigration and as a result, they will loose my vote for that very reason. If they choose not to listen to their constituents then they can expect to make losses.’
I’m well aware of the hard work being done by immigrants (I used my eyes for that too). I have no issue with that. My issues have been outlined plenty of times in the above.
By the way, did you read the irish times on tuesday and the article about our President getting grief in Latvia because they perceive Ireland as thieving all of their young and talented. Interesting to see the other side of the equation.
Also, you seem to be saying that the Irish are not also ‘working their nuts off’ I suggest you rethink that one. In modern ireland everyone works their nuts off. Thats not a bonus for me, I like to take it handy. Working your nuts off seems to me to be not conducive to a healthy, civilised society.
I think anyone is silly who thinks that unbiased research figures exist. It is all too common highlighted how politicians and lobby groups of all shades cook figures to suit arguments.
Also, how can it be xenophobic to use my natural God given senses to observe the world around me and draw conclusions therefrom. It’s called being observant. if I made all my judgments from ‘qualified and unbiased research figures from reputable bodies such as Laura mentioned’ I’d be a pretty 2 dimensional personality.
P.S. I gave FG my 2nd.
May 25th, 2007 at 12:18 am
Ed,
I think we probably agree on far more than we disagree. I’m out there workin’ my nuts off (or at least pretending too!) and I’m right there with you on that one. But there are a fair portion of our countrymen taking the piss out of you and I by living off the state.
Now before I get murdered… I have no issue what so ever with people who need it getting a leg up and a helping hand. It is fantastic that we can help those who need it. But that’s just it, some people are using these payments to live and make no effort to pay their own way… this is my money and yours and it could be put to much better use. And now because I’m shattered tired and cranky I’m going to quit before I say something really stupid!!! Sorry for not finishing this properly, I’ll get back to ya when I’m not falling asleep.
With regard to Niamh, I was wondering what exactly her opinion was as I doubt I canvassed her. Given that I’d prefer to canvass properly -that is to listen to the opinion of the person who is generous enough to give their time and see if I can help- I would probably have had it out with her rather than ignore her! I do so enjoy a good argument.
By the way thanks for the #2. It is much appreciated.
May 25th, 2007 at 1:21 am
“some people are using these payments to live and make no effort to pay their own way”
oh you knew that one would get you in trouble…
nah, I know what you mean, and quite likely it’s true BUT…
It’s a tricky issue. It’s not just that a certain element of society don’t want to work and would rather draw the dole… it’s entirely possible that as a nation we have created a section of society for whom that is the culture.
So whatever you’re going with this I hope it addresses a long term solution for the country to re-engage with portions of society who have become all but disenfranchised over a hell of a long period of time… it’s going to take more than getting up on our high horses and telling them to get a job…
May 25th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Aha! You’ve walked into it. If we have so many of ours on the dole and getting used to benefits then why do we import so much labour? Surely it makes sense to sort out our unemployment problem by getting them into work before importing others to do so. The Irish unemployed are being handed an excuse on a silver platter ‘The Poles took all our jobs!”
May 26th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
It’s so depressing. A FF majority! This country is shite.
May 26th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
I’d rather a center right government in power instead of a left wing trumpet allowing everyone in. Thats why I voted FF. Maybe next time if the Socialists/Labour/Greens reform their immigration policies then they will see people voting them. In the meantime, commiserations for the left wing minority!
May 27th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Well… the people have spoken…. not entirely sure exactly what they were saying yet but, at least almost 70% of them decided to speak!
Frank, I learned a long time ago never to commit to paper (or electronic copy) anything when I’m really tired. That’s why I stopped where I did. The answer to the question of immigration/social welfare and employment is never going to be fully sorted. Not to every/anyone’s satisfaction at least.
Ed, We don’t necessarily have those qualified on the dole or otherwise to cope with the demands of our labour market. While you do make a valid point it aint that simple I’m afraid. If you can get more of our disenfranchised out to work then by all means… go for it. In the mean time we should allow some of those willing to work here the opportunity to do so.
I think its time for me to start working on the next campaign… maybe even my own!
May 28th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Ed: yup, can’t say i’m surprised, even if I remained secretly hopeful throughout… pretty depressing though…
Dave: are you seriously thinking of it?
May 28th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Joe: sounds to me like you are not up to speed on the policies of Socialists/Labour/Greens.
May 28th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Joe, are you for real? I don’t think you have read the mood of the electorate very well. And, I’d like to second Franks point above.
Frank; its something I have been thinking about for some time… and now is more or less the time to act!
May 28th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Dave, sounds good. I think we differ a bit in our opinions but we have common ground too. I look forward to charting your progress! Expect loads of grillings from me on how the hell you get started (not that I want to just curiosity!)
May 28th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Dave, Dont steal any of your ideas from T.U.P.P.I. (The upright people’s party of Ireland) Joe thinks that FF can sort out the immigration thgingy which is pretty absurd. Know MacDowell is gone we’re all fucked. May aswell migrate to Cape clear.
P.S you dont need many qualifiactions to pour a bad Pint of Murphy’s. Just a smile… and even that’s hard to get from a P__e sometimes.
May 28th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Can’t believe you had a problem with the Citizenship referendum frank…Just can not believe it. the one sensible thing we’ve done on the subject and you had a problem with it. I can’t believe it. Not for the life of me.
May 28th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
When are you going to do the raft to bermuda pictures?
May 28th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
http://www.rafttobermuda.wordpress.com
May 29th, 2007 at 1:16 am
Ed,
In the words of many many college students from all over the world… If you steal from one source its plagiarism! If you steal from several sources its research!
May 29th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Ha! Fair enough. if you need an ‘ol minister for Justice give me a shout. I’ve got a huge baton.
May 29th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
I promise to keep you in mind if I ever reach the heady heights of appointing ministers! In the mean time maybe if I ask Frank nicely he’ll let me start a thread to research what it is we want/expect from our public reps!
June 6th, 2007 at 5:40 am
Jackie Healy Rae is wonderful! He is a caring honest and fair man. He does a lot more than he is given credit for in this blog! Jackie goes above and beyond every day for people!
July 3rd, 2007 at 10:27 am
Over the weekend I was in Wesenberg, a small town in Mecklenburg Vorpommern, which is in what used to be the DDR. They were celebrating their annual Burgfest (Castlefestival) as I was there, and it was all very enjoyable.
There was re-enacted jousting and sword fencing; live music in the town square all weekend; the mayor and other dignataries were all in period costume, and healthy, happy children played all around the square while the village idiot was drunk and kept falling over while dancing. You could enjoy delicious roasted meats and chickens roasted over spits in many of the stalls there and enjoy locally produced beers and spirits-all at very reasonable prices (a beer was 1.50).
It was all about celebrating local culture and tradition; it wasn’t about making a quick few bob. Everyone enjoyed themselves; everyone enjoyed being part of a celebration of a real, local, organic culture. Besides myself, there wasn’t a foreigner to be seen-brilliant!