We got it wrong. Can we have another go?
May 28th, 2007 by Frank
The decision to hold another General Election was not taken lightly. We recognise that there are those who strongly and genuinely believe that the outcome of this Election should be accepted as representing the definitive view of the people on the Government. However, for many reasons we do not believe that any responsible people could let the matter rest there. We made this clear in our various grumblings before the General Election. And we made this clear in our blogs. Simply put, the people cannot take risks about Irelands future.*
Surely Europe could step in or something…?
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May 28th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
The old Nice Treaty eh? I wonder where you got that idea from?
May 28th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Yeah, your post prompted me - the Nice treaty, the citizenship referendum and our (lack of?) reaction to America’s rampage were all contributing factors to my despair at this country…
May 28th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
Frank, Did you seriously have a problem with our citizenship referendum? if so, I really think you are the most wooly minded, gullible young chap I know.
May 28th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
My four walls and my car. Welcome to Ireland 2007. Just let me off here.
May 28th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Ed, too tired to get into it too deeply with you, but in short I had several problems with it.
1: Government did very little to get any real debate going on the issue - probably because they knew it would pass for completely unrelated reasons stemming from incorrect beliefs about the change to our constitution.
2. As stated on the refugee council website: The referendum is yet another ad hoc and short-term measure that takes the place of a comprehensive and forward-looking immigration policy. Though Ireland’s capacity to manage the changed reality of immigration has developed in recent years, the lack of a cohesive policy to deal with immigration and the failure by government to deliver on a long-promised Immigration and Residency Bill are serious failures.
3. As outlined in the Seanad: he issue of most concern is the idea that we are bound not just by the Constitution but international treaties and conventions on human rights. The commission concluded that under a number of those treaties to which the State is a party, Ireland has accepted obligations to guarantee rights equally to all persons, specifically all children, within its territory without discrimination on the basis of nationality, race, ethnic background or other status. The Minister dealt with that comprehensively. However, his conclusion did not grow logically out of the points he made. The differential treatment likely to result between citizen and non-citizen children may constitute unlawful discrimination under international law in respect of a new category of non-citizen children. More here.
So there you go, yes I had a problem with it and if you think that makes me woolly minded and gullible I’m happy to be so, along with the Irish Human Rights Commission.
May 29th, 2007 at 10:12 am
The main point here is not the details of the Nice Treaty but the simple fact that Bertie would have kept calling referenda until he got a “yes” majority, thus nullifying the idea of democratic plebiscite. If we “made a mistake” back then, as Bertie put it, then maybe we “made a mistake” again this time.
May 29th, 2007 at 9:37 pm
As if the refugee council was going to say anything other than the usual? They have their jobs to protect. Where did you learn all your soapy, liberal/leftist views from? I realised you were a bit of a naive utopian idealist well before now but to have a legitimate grievance with a policy that put an end to a practice of African ladies having babies in Dublin airport to get a passport is actually quite deluded, if not downright dangerous in the long run.
You’re an expert at coming up with quotes on issues I question though. Fair dues. You must have stacks of reference books on your desk.
May 29th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Yes, The Nice treaty should have taught us all that Democracy really is a limited idea. It was a particularly vulgar example of it’s misuse.
May 30th, 2007 at 1:07 am
“a policy that put an end to a practice of African ladies having babies in Dublin airport to get a passport”
Ed, you are just trying to get me on a rant aren’t you…
May 30th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Ed, Be nice to Frank!
Without going into the whole immigration thingy again and being totally party politically minded it must be said that the nice treaty and the referendum on citizenship are just two in a long list of misuses of power and poor legislative practice by our glorious leadership!
I blame Fine Gael and Labour for not providing an effective opposition.
I blame Fine Gael and Labour for not holding the government to a higher standard.
I blame Fine Gael and Labour for not communicating effectively with the country.
Not just for those two but on so many other issues;
Eddie Hobbs and David Mc Williams provided far better opposition to the government on the economy.
Groups of concerned citizens changed the governments mind on things like poor legislation on sex crimes.
One woman recently ended up going to the media to get the man who raped her sent to jail.
No one in power gives a flying fcuk when Ireland is used as a forward air base by the US against the wishes of the vast majority of the country.
Government can take CIA at their word that everything is perfectly legal on all their flight… oh except for that one time you caught us with a guy in a jump suit all hand cuffed and stuff.
Electronic voting
Dirty hospitals
Kids going to school in prefabs
365 killed on shit roads with not enough enforcement of poor road safety legislation!
I could go on but I’ll save some for later! In short it’s not the electorate’s fault they voted on the issues as they were presented. It’s not the governments fault, the electorate keep telling them it’s ok, they’re doing a fine job… Good man Bertie!
The responsibility for the poor performance of this government lies squarely with the opposition parties.
May 30th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
I dont mean to be nasty to Frank in the slightest, but I find his Liberalism is of the really irritating kind. The Citizenship of the country was being totally exploited, people were arriving at our airports heavily pregnant and some did actually give birth on arrival. Frank probably finds this alarmist, but Frank probably finds everything alarmist if it doesn’t have some backing from some ‘rights’ group.The referendum righted it. 95% of Irish people expressed there feelings on the matter, yet Frank finds an issue with it. Amazing!!
I’m not a one issue kind of guy, in case you were beginning to think so. it’s just that naive liberalism really gets my back up. Sorry Frank. I know my views dont sit too well with you either.
May 30th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Ed, as a matter of interest do you actually read my replies to your right wing comments or do you just, as it would appear, assume naive liberalism automatically?
May 30th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
Ed,
Just under 60% of the electorate voted… 79.17% voted for the 27th amendment to the constitution, which means only 48% of the electorate voted for the change. This is far from half of the population and no where near to the 95% you imply above.
I’m not trying to be pedantic, although I am most likely failing. If someone doesn’t bother to vote thought shit. If memory serves correctly I voted in favour… But I do think it was poor legislation and that we are incapable of having a mature debate in this country. I agree with you that our systems and hospitality might have been taken advantage off by some.
However and this is I think where we differ, I do think we must accept our moral responsibility as a wealthy civilised country and help those who need it. We were always very proud of the contributions we made with trocaire, goal etc but when we were put to the test… when the problems came to our own doorstep, we showed our true colours. We are no better than our European cousins… I suppose in our defence we didn’t rape pillage and plunder the 3rd world in the first place. But if it were not for our climate and location that would be us! I suppose my point is this, instead of liberal I think you should think empathy and compassioin
May 30th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Empathy and compassion can actually be dangerous if misguided, which I believe some of the above views to be no matter how well intended. We should learn from other European countries which are experiencing escalating troubles and therefore resorting to voting in right wing governments. I was recently in England where there was huge debate on the fact the the Labour minister margeret hodges had conceded that after 10 years their policy of giving preferance to immigrants in social housing over indigenoius people was wrong. They finally conceded, and only because labour had realised that it is serious danger of losing their core support, the white working class, who are now feeling disenfranchised to the extent that measures may now have to be taken to redress the imbalance by positive discrimination for white Britons!
This is the kind of lunacy that well intended but misguided liberalism has. And I can see our country blundering down the same avenue.
Moral responsability all well and good. But the numbers are large and the consequences irreversable. More time and thought needs to be put into it. It is undeniably unwise to apply our ’short termism’ philosophy to demographics because demographics can not be reversed. For example lets explore the effect mass emmigration has on newly developing economies in countries such as Latvia… where’s our moral reponsablilty there? We dont care because we want their workers… Lets look at exactly how many African Immigrants ireland, and Europe can actually manage to integrate without creating tensions, ghettos and other social divisions? Lets look at the growing influence of Islam in Europe and have a real discussion on whether we want Islam to replace Christianity (which it is well on the way to doing, 50 years by some estimates)
if we really cherish cultural diversity then lets discuss protecting some European cultures which are being homogenised in the name of a failing (liberal left) idea that is multiculturalism… which we have been taught to accept without questioning.
Anyway, all this talk is fine but the real facts I believe are that capitalism needs workers and if we’re not breeding enough of our own, they will find them whereever they can, irrespective of any culture clash or indiginous sensibilities. the organised P.C. lobbies and the 4 million immigration societies make a perfect if unusal bedfellow in this arrangement… rather like the neo-con Zionists and the fundamentalist Christians in the U.S.
I may be right wing but I still consider myself open minded.
May 30th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
“Empathy and compassion can actually be dangerous if misguided, which I believe some of the above views to be no matter how well intended.”
Which ones precisely Ed?
May 30th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
THE CITIZENSHIP REFERENDUM!!!
May 31st, 2007 at 12:44 am
Yes, which views on it precisely don’t you agree with?
May 31st, 2007 at 1:00 am
Ed,
Let’s have it so, what’s you’re right wing answer? You are correct about capitalism and its insatiable lust for the bottom line. On a few other points, well let’s say I’d like to see you expand.
Dave
May 31st, 2007 at 1:51 am
should we not continue this conversation in the immigration debate?
May 31st, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Which points would you wish me to expand on? I’m perfectly willing. What’s my right wing answer to what? i’ve already said that I think the sensible way forward is to halt all non european immigration for the moment and wait to see how well we can truely integrate those we have taken in. Obviously genuine refugees are not included. I believe the multi-cultural experiment has failed, and Trevor Phillips of the british Equality authority has conceded this. He has said that Britain is heading down the road to ’self imposed apartheid’ ie: different cultures and ethnicities are by their own natural inclinations deciding on living separately. Only in the bigger cities does it work and only to a certain extent. disappear and we would find commonality in other areas. It simply has not happened. This may be hard to swallow for some people but I believe it is a bigger mistake not to aknowlege these truths.
I may be wrong, and indeed I hope Iam am but at this stage I think the Whole of Europe is sitting on a powder keg in this regard. Only time will tell.
June 1st, 2007 at 2:05 am
What I want to know, personally, is which views I am supposed to have outlined that were misguided and dangerous though well intentioned.
June 1st, 2007 at 8:46 am
Frank, pretty much everything you have said in the last while on immigration has led me to say what i have said. I’m not gonna trawl through all the comments.
June 1st, 2007 at 12:52 pm
This post. Citizenship referendum. Specifics.
If you were actually engaging instead of ranting on about ‘African ladies having babies in Dublin airport to get a passport’ this wouldn’t be difficult - after all I’m only asking you to back up your assertion.
June 1st, 2007 at 3:17 pm
End non-eu immigration… lets start there… No Americans, no Swiss, No Australians or New Zealander’s? That’d work out real well, go down a treat with the Yanks, we’d have a good few tens of thousand illegal Irish arriving back in Cobh and Shannon! No more year visa’s to Aus and New Z for everyone.
So what you really mean is no more blacks or muslims. Even if thats not what you mean, without really explaining, without expanding to the last detail thats how it sounds… such as;
Who decides what constitutes genuine refugees?
Who decides who is an economic refugee and who is in real danger of a long slow painfull torturous death on return to their home land?
Whats an acceptable torture to be sent back to face?
Who decides how many genunie refugees is “enough”?
Who decides which shade, creed or race of person is acceptable as a refugee?
This is just the first few questions which spring to mind. I could keep typing but you’ve enough there to get back to me with. By the end of this blog we might have a decent bit of legislation!
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Yes, Dave, that is what I mean. Shocking as it may sound. Now before you choke on a gobstopper, I’ll briefly explain.
America, Oz and the Kiwi’s share our western culture (please don’t ask what constitutes as ‘western’) We share most aspects of our civilisation. You or Frank will probably debate this but I believe it in general to be incontrovertible. Essentially we are the same peoples, sharing histories that span millennia. Something that we simply do not share with Africa. Hence, American or Oz integration being a lot easier. I’m not saying African integration is not do-able, it is just much more difficult (in large numbers, hence the ’self imposed apartheid trevor phillips talks about.) and therefore should be more thought about and planned, which it simply isn’t…at all. All we hear from in general is pap from the likes of the equality authority about tolerance and racism.
All of your above questions are easily answerable, And I dont mind who decides as long as it is decided by SOME intelligent body. As it already is I’m sure by some international body. The Geneva covention etc etc.
Who decides what constitutes genuine refugees?
Genuine refugees are those genuinely in fear for their lives as a result of conflict.
There is no such thing as an ‘economic refugee’ by the way.
Who decides how many genunie refugees is “enough�?
That is tricky one. A balance has to be made between helping those genuinly in distress and causing social tensions in the recieving country. Obviously if war breaks out between India and pakistan Europe could not realistically look after 23 million displaced Pakistanis. This is to be avoided only by world governments not allowing such a war to happen.
Who decides which shade, creed or race of person is acceptable as a refugee?
Obviously race, creed and colour do not and should not play a part in the decision. and before I am accused of hypocricy, refugees in general make up very little portion of those arriving. it is mostly economic migrants. Nigerians are economic migrants. Their county is stable with plenty of natural wealth. These dubious claims of running from a authoritarian system are not enough to constitute refugee status. Otherwise most of the non European world has a claim, and this is simply not feasible.
frank, we aint in a boxing ring! Most of your comments are coming from the same place, the place that I find naive and utopian. I’m not gonna trawl through all your comments so dont ask me to.
The fact that you predictably keep quoting the african ladies giving birth in airports comment as if it is a totally disgusting thing to say, even if true, is the irritating pseudo-liberalism that get’s my back up…. the ‘liberal facism’ i mentioned a while back is the sort that wont allow a truth that they don’t like, or doesn’t fit with their cosy world view from emerging.
Don’t you appreciate my rants? and if you don’t find my honest opinions engaging then perhaps we should call a halt.
Enjoy the weekend chaps.
June 2nd, 2007 at 11:58 pm
I think Mary O’Rourke said it best when she said: “I have nothing against blacks, I think everyone should have one!�
I wonder if Ed would mind telling me just how old the USA and Australia are, in terms of millennia please, and could that figure not include the thousands of years that the natives lived there happily before the original “refugees� moved in, thanks.
Even the briefest look at Western history will show up how heavily influenced it is by ethnicity. You don’t need to spend a weekend in southern Spain to see the Moorish influence
Lets stop playing the fucking race card. This hasn’t got anything to do with race or what colour your micky is. This has to do with the allowance of foreign criminals and “state-suckers� into this country. Ireland is a wash with native criminals as it is… we have one running the country for fucks sake, we don’t need any more. There are some wonderful, interesting, hard working foreigners coming to live in Ireland, who want to do nothing more than get on with life and have a sneaky wank while the missus is asleep. I’ve met some of these people and I think its fabulous! Unfortunately, Mr. Nice Black Guy could never alter my life as much as Mr. Mental Pole who sticks a knife in my throat, or Little Romanian Cunt who steals my money from an ATM. These people are non nationals and should be treated as such.
A simple and fair solution: Let them in, heck we need a bit of diversity here: let us have Nigerian seanós singers, let us have South American fiddle players, let us have Polish leprechauns, let us have magic mushrooms, let us have a society built up of commonality through ethnicity, but don’t piss on us! Any non national found guilty of a crime should be fucked out into the middle of the Atlantic and dropped into a boat with a hole in it. Any lazy foreigners hoping to have an easy life sucking the state dry should also be dropped into the Atlantic but given an enact boat with oars. After the fuckers have spent a few weeks rowing for their life they might come to see how wonderful work is. We can fuck Bertie out in a boat too.
The bottom line: non-nationals have a duty to weed out the scum in their circle of fellow countrymen. Until they do this, rightfully or wrongfully, they are going to be tarred with the same brush. As for Muslims, simple answer: ban religion!
June 3rd, 2007 at 6:52 am
Ed, there’s one short post and four comments from me before you made your generalist, inaccurate and offensive comments that my views expressed on this post are ‘misguided [...] dangerous [...] naieve [...] soapy, liberal/leftist views’. Thats not a lot of text to ‘trawl through’ to back up your point.
Therefore let’s just say you can’t, shall we?
Gamma Goblin - interesting solutions you outline, in essence I think I agree with you, not about the boat with the hole in it, but that lawbreaking is a separate issue that needs to be dealt with in it’s own right regardless of race or status, as for laziness… well I’m partial to a bit of that myself from time to time so…
June 3rd, 2007 at 3:51 pm
‘A simple and fair solution: Let them in, heck we need a bit of diversity here: let us have Nigerian seanós singers, let us have South American fiddle players, let us have Polish leprechauns, let us have magic mushrooms, let us have a society built up of commonality through ethnicity,’
This is the kind of theory I find misguided pap that is all too easy to spout. This kind of post modern, culture mulshing destroys real culture and promotes a demented kind of mtv trash society that ultimately respects nothing except the present. And of course Frank agrees with it…. it sounds nice and rosy.
What the hell does a society built on commonality through ethnicity mean’ anyway?
The millenia I was refering to was the fact that it was in general European peoples who set up these societies based on European principles, philosophies and cultures. i thought that would have been self explanitory.
Expecting non nationals to weed out their own criminlas is a nice but deluded concept. How do you expect that to happen exactly?
Anybody who voted against the referendum and believes that arriving in the country and giving birth automatically entitles you to European entitlements I personally find ‘misguided […] dangerous […] naieve […] soapy, liberal/leftist views’ Will that do you Frank?
June 3rd, 2007 at 4:46 pm
No, Ed, it won’t do.
Where did I say that exactly?
June 3rd, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Hi there Ed! Thanks for replying to my comment, I’m really glad you took my hyperbolic meandering so seriously!
“The millenia I was refering to was the fact that it was in general European peoples who set up these societies based on European principles, philosophies and cultures. i thought that would have been self explanitory.”
But of course! How silly of me… I forgot how much of a bubble Europeans were in for thousands of years. Nothing has changed in all that time, and there certainly hasnt been any outside influence on us at all. Of course not, and the earth is flat, right?
“This is the kind of theory I find misguided pap that is all too easy to spout. ”
I’m delighted to hear that you want foreign immigrants who arrive here NOT to adopt Irish culture and customs. Why you dont want them to accept and respect our heritage is a mistery but hey, whatever floats your boat, the ghetto idea really worked well in the past! I thought it was a fairly right wing opinion I was putting across “be like us or get the fuck out” but it obviously wasnt not right wing enough. Anyway, youre forgetting, if they get out of line, theres always the boat with the hole in it!
“What the hell does a society built on commonality through ethnicity mean’ anyway?”
Oh you know, its just one of those throw away comments like “post modern, culture mulshing”.
“Expecting non nationals to weed out their own criminlas is a nice but deluded concept. How do you expect that to happen exactly?”
I would like, if I may, to give a possible answer to this by example of a little hiphop tune called “C U when you get there” by LL Coolio Dog…
“Now little Timmy got his diploma and little Jimmy got life
And Tamikra around the corner just took her first hit off the pipe
The other homie shot the other homie and ran off with his money
And when the other homies heard about it they thought that it was funny”
See, if the “other homies” went to the Guards instead of just laughing at the situation they might have been able to catch the shooter!
All this Treaty by Treaty bollocks is a pain in the arse… we should have just one referendum on Europe: “Become a full member of the United States of Europe” or “Pull out of Europe”. Our current wishy washy status within Europe causes me much vexation!
June 4th, 2007 at 4:02 am
Alright boys, I’ve said my piece. Now i’m done. I’m not prepared to take on all gammy goblins thoughtful wittisisms (but really it’s cos I have no rap to back up my arguement) and Frank is being a bit too insistant on getting an answer that I’ve answered to my satisfaction far too many times. Sorry I cant offer you more satisfaction Frank.
It’s been good though.
June 4th, 2007 at 5:36 am
Ok, let’s call it a day on this one.
Just for the record though, my point in being insistent is that your comment on my views seemed to indicate, fairly clearly, that you had not bothered to digest my views at all.
I’m fairly confident given your complete failure (despite your belief) to back up your assertions, that right after I explained my views you would not have been able to indicate even a ballpark estimation of them if asked.
That kind of crap just pisses me off.
June 4th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Since you loved the rap, Edmund, I’ll leave you with this one, from Oscar Wilde, but made famous by the Happy Hardcore giants, Scooter!
“Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong”
Hyper, Hyper!
June 5th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
O.k Frank.
I did read your initial posting about your problem with the referendum. i read it when you posted it, and I read the links. I read the pretty poor explanation of why the referendum was bad written by peter O’mahony of the Refugee council (or as much as I could stomach of it anyway).
The little statistic was also pretty poor and I presume that you thought that just because the highest percentage of people believed that the law should be changed was because of the exploitation of Irish citizenship and not because of the actual fact meant that people were voting for the wrong reason, but the 2 reasons actually add up to the same thing, it’s just wording, and wording and statistics are no estimate of anything really. So I didn’t see the point on commenting on it.
I also noted that you may have had a problem with it because you saw it as a government attempt to hide it’s shoddy record on dealing with the subject of immigration. There is a certain amount of truth to this, but the referendum was actually one of the only sensible things they have done. The citizenship of the country WAS being exploited, word spread from Ireland to the bottom of Africa that all you had to do to get E.U citizenship was to arrive and have a baby. Fact. We were the only country in Europe to have had this law and it was originally created for the Northern ireland situation, something to do with catholics north of the border getting republic passports. It was a loop hole for clever lawyers to make some money charging people desperate to get to Europe. It was insane to carry on. For the refugee council to argue anything else just leads me to believe they will say anything to give themselves a reason to be. I despise that.
The reason I didn’t bother to go into this much detail with you before was because I guessed, rightly , that you had a problem with it from a liberal perspective and didn’t see a need to debate the right and wrongs of the referendum. I just was pretty amazed that you would have a problem with it.
I wonder did dave have a problem with it?
I apologise if this annoyed you. But things like ‘Do you read my comments’ were also quite annoying cos your comments only consisted of asking me whether I read your comments or not. Also I found it annoying that they were not actually your views, they were quotes that you found on websites (I’m not saying its shite to quote people who you agree with, it’s just when it’s constant quotes I become wary.)
Also, when I put forward an idea, you never seemed to react to it or want to discuss it, you just repeated your claim that I had not read your comment .
And then the rapper arrives with his cool references, his silly asumptions (That I’ll agree with something simply cos it looks right wing, or that I dont realise that Europe has plenty of external cultural influences ), and his statements that make no sense.
So, I did read your comments and I did digest your views (as much as I could) and in my book I argued them and you didn’t. Anyway, I realise you’ve probably got better things to do than debate referendums. I’ll keep my comments to myself in future (as in off your site). It’s just good to get stuck in sometimes.
Right, Got that off my chest. Are you coming to my stag? No Politics, no religion., no philosophy (which leaves us fashion and cuisine)
June 6th, 2007 at 3:58 am
Ed, thanks for all that, I appreciate the time you took to write it all - of course I didn’t need all that I just needed an answer to the question which you have still more or less failed to answer - the closest to an answer I feel i got was this short bit in the middle:
‘The reason I didn’t bother to go into this much detail with you before was because I guessed, rightly , that you had a problem with it from a liberal perspective and didn’t see a need to debate the right and wrongs of the referendum.’
Which is pretty much what I thought - you guessed, rather than actually referring to what I said.
And yes, I hope to make your stag and discuss fashion and cuisine with you
June 6th, 2007 at 9:39 am
“Alright boys, I’ve said my piece. Now i’m done.”
You are? Aww such a pity… oh no wait, youre back! Lighten up boy! I only came on here to give Frank a good bashing over stealing my post!
LL Coolio Dog…. you took that shit seriously?
For the record: I voted against the Nice Treaty twice and against the 27th amendment of the constitution. I’d vote the same way tomorrow if given the choice.
June 6th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Stealing?!!!???
June 6th, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Don’t play innocent! I saw you putting one of my posts under your jacket last week. Classic case of post-theft!
June 6th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
I was going to give it back…
June 7th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Martin, I deleted your comment. It was not in any way constructive and was offensive and objectionable.
June 7th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
You were dead right Frank, sorry about that.
June 12th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
Firstly apologies for not posting over the last week and a half or so. I think I’ll let sleeping dogs lie on the immigration issue!
Is it just me or does it look like the Greens are totally selling out… I know we’ll know a lot more this time tomorrow but seriously if they have flipped on corporate donations and Trev goes in as leader then there is no way they can be taken seriously! They should take a look at what happened the last party to get into bed with FF… the progressive who’s? And the damage Labour suffered after they back tracked and took the chance of getting their hands on power.
If per chance there are any Green party members reading this… Go to your conference and fight for your parties survival… because if ye go into government with that shower then yer done for!
June 12th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
Well, it’s interesting because while I voted for them, I voted for them no.5 or so, because of their general move toward the center in an effort to get more votes… but then that’s politics it would seem… sooner or later you have to become like FF if you want to get votes. Not that I’m condoning it, it’s depressing, but I suppose I’d probably rather they were in the government than not. At least they could be hounded for stands they’ve made on things in the past. I know, fat lot of good it would do.
It’s like they say, no matter who I vote for the government always gets in.
June 13th, 2007 at 9:05 am
A party does have to move to the centre to get more votes because like it or not that’s where most people in stable, relatively well off, western style democracies are.
The same thing happened to the Shinners, take a look at how their policies altered when it looked like they might actually get a chance to implement them. However the Shinners still want 32 counties.
The problem the Greens are facing is however do they want to sell their souls to the devil in order to drink from the cup of power?What will they sacrafice in order to sit on the other side of the chamber? Will they row back on their assertion that Brian Cowen needs a good cleaning? Will they set up a tent at the Galway races, a greener more environmentally friendly, fuel efficient, biodegradable recyclable tent… but a tent none the less? What type of Mrec would a green minister get? Would they be able to justify the government jet, all those emmissions for just 12 passengers!
Will Trev totally flip flop and go for glory as the first green Tanaiste? Will he go from no, no, no to… Yes, yes, yes Bertie what ever you say Bertie? Will he be able to find it in his soul to forgive “the most cunning and devious of them all� his minor misgivings… I mean its totally plausible that the money was just resting in his account, when he finally got one!
What disappoints me is that we as a nation sell ourselves short. We used to have an idealistic party formed by people who could stand by no more in the face of FF corruption and malpractice. But the sniff of power snuffed them out, FF took from them what they wanted and now that party is screwed, imagine in any other country the deputy PM losing his seat! Let’s hope the Greens have more respect for themselves and their ideals. For if they don’t I fear the worst. Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.
June 13th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Did you see this: What will the greens bring to Government.
June 13th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Looks like I’m not alone in my musings! Don’t do it greens… for the love of God or whom ever you gay, tree hugging, veggie types worship!
Gay in the happy sense obviously!!!!
June 20th, 2007 at 10:15 am
People in mixed-race areas ‘feel isolated’: the Telegraph
June 20th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
Good God man… give it a rest!
Firstly there is a whole other thread for the immigration discussion.
Secondly
When people go to vote in a general election they vote for candidates who they think will run the country in the manner they think it should be run… the whole country not just some wacko who is going to sit over the shoulder of the Gardai at the airport! That’s why they Ted Neville, your ICP hero, only got 804 votes in a constituency with 91,090 votes… so in short only about 0.88% of the population of Cork south central agree with your views.
If you wana talk more about the immigration thing post it in the immigration discussion. The people have spoken and they don’t give a flying fcuk! But I am more than happy to keep the debate alive.
Recommended reading for the ICP and others “concerned� with immigration issues;
How to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie
Words that work, It’s not what you say its what people hear by Dr. Frank Luntz