Why Vote Yes to Lisbon?
April 12th, 2008 by DaveLisbon eh… what’s that all about.
There is nothing sexy about the Lisbon Treaty, there is no great gain for the man on the street… Depending who you speak to voting yes to the Lisbon treaty will create an EU superstate, introduce abortion to Ireland, give the EU total control over our laws and taxes, create an EU army which we will all be conscripted into and will place a cap of one child per family!
I’m all for free speech and debate… but it helps if both sides are at least prepared to stick to something resembling the truth.
My sister told me she is voting no becuase what she read on the Libertas website-
“The Government’s referendum bill makes it completely clear that after Lisbon, the EU will have the final say over nearly all major issues of importance to the Irish people.”
If thats not scare moungering I don’t know what is! The Lisbon Treaty specifies that the constitution of every member state is the over riding document in that country… nothing the EU does can over ride that!
The Lisbon Treaty is designed to reorganise how the EU goes about its business. It changes the way in which decisions and laws are made and how they are implemented. It is required because the institutions which ran a 15 state EU are not sustainable for a 27 state EU.
This treaty is not anti democracy as some would have you believe… It is anti bureauracy. It is designed to make Europe a better place to live for its citizen and to give Europe a stronger voice on the world stage hopefully preventing the type of unilateral actions by a US administration that have defined the international stage over the last decade.
This Treaty will:
- Strengthen the EU’s capacity to bring greater economic prosperity, which we have shared and will continue to share.
- Equip the EU to better deal with global warming; energy security and cross border crime, because we cannot do this on our own.
- Limit the size of the European Parliament and the European Commission so that we have less bureaucracy and more efficiency.
- Create a new EU Foreign Affairs Representative who will give us a stronger voice on the world stage, in the UN and dealing with developing countries needs. As China and other regions organise it is important we are not left behind.
- Make the Charter on Fundamental Rights legally binding on EU Institutions and Member States when implementing EU Law, thereby safeguarding the rights of Irish citizens.
- By extending the powers of our MEPs and strengthening the role of Dáil & Seanad Éireann, make Europe more accountable.
- Ensure that the EU exercises those responsibilities - but only those responsibilities - that can be carried out more effectively by commonly agreed policies than by Member States acting separately.
For those who want more info on the treaty I would suggest:-
www.Libertas.org www.no2lisbon.ie
http://www.europarl.ie/lisbontreaty_meps.html?gclid=CNuc2oeP1pICFQd3MAodRnDm6g
http://www.finegael.ie/treatyoflisbon/index.htm
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April 12th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
I have heard that the Lisbon Treaty will put an end to the need to hold a referendum on any future treaties. Since I haven’t gotten round to checking this for myself, I’m going to ask you. Any idea how true this is?
Thanks for posting this by the way. We need to get a debate going about this Treaty.
April 12th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Hey Eoin,
No this is not true. Our constitution is set up in such a way that we need to be consulted on anything that might affect it. The following is a quote from the Fine Gael website-
“It’s the Last Time we Will be Consulted with a Referendum
This is a myth being propagated by the No side. Some opponents claim that this is a “self-amending Treaty”. This is utterly untrue. Ireland must, by virtue of its constitution, consult the people by means of a referendum when ratifying any Treaty. The Reform Treaty does not, in any way, fetter this obligation. The Treaty does provide for a simplified amending process for future Treaties but states categorically in the revised Article 33: “The amendments shall enter force after being ratified by all the member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.” In other words, no changes can take place unless there is a referendum in Ireland, which is the usual procedure. Thus the myth that there will be no further referenda can by exposed for what it is.”
I hope that this helps!
Dave
April 12th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Interesting. Must put that to the No side when (if) I see them. See what they think.
April 14th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Good post, like the ant-bureaucracy point.
April 15th, 2008 at 3:11 am
It does mean we will have no control over trade barriers which means unfettered access to our markets regardless of consequences. If we cant compete we lose. Our meat will come from south America and everything else from everywhere else.
This country will become completely reliant on foreign imports to survive as our farmers give up the go facing insurmountable competition from countries with lower farming standards.
Consume, consume, consume. That’s what the European superstate is about. I’d be tempted at this stage to say ‘fuck the consumer… he’s a fat wastefull bollocks who does what he’s told and eats what he’s given’ …time to think of the producer for once perhaps?
Shame really, because I’d love to see a strong, untited Europe, we need to have one at this stage.
April 15th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Sorry Vitmar but this treaty has little or nothing to do with the EU’s trading relationships with other countries. While I agree with your real concerns about this countries dependence on foreign products I’m afraid voting no for the Lisbon treaty will have no influence over these EU policies.
I think using terms like superstate distracts from what this treaty is about… the completley un-sexy topic of reorganising how the EU’s institutions do business to cut down on red tape and to give more influence to our directly elected MEP’s.
As for fucking the consumer… can’t say I agree with you on that one!
Also its worth remembering that the Treaty gives for the first time a charter of human rights for all citizen’s of the EU… giving further protection to you, me and all the other consumers!
April 16th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
I’m not entirely comfortable, and to be honest Dave you haven’t convinced me…
I haven’t had a chance to follow the links just yet though.
What do you make of the allegations that it’s just another misuse of ‘democracy’ to keep hammering at getting that EU constitution…
This kind of ministerial scaremongering alone makes me want to vote no.
April 16th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Constitution-
• Noun - a body of fundamental principles or established precedents according to which a state or organization is governed.
So ya… you could call the Lisbon treaty a constitution… what about it? It is a change to the set of guiding principles by which the EU is organised… so by the same definition it is a referendum to change the constitution that already exists. What difference does it make what we call it? Would it be different if it was called the Cork Constitution?
Yes the treaty will allow the EU to amend the treaties which govern it in the future but only under certain circumstances and with important protections-
“New procedures would allow the European Council, acting unanimously, to amend the Treaties in limited areas but each Member State must ratify such amendments e.g. by parliamentary vote or by referendum. For amendments, which allow more decisions to be made by qualified majority or by co-decision with the European Parliament, each national parliament can block the change.”
“It has been stated by No campaigners that the Treaty is a grab for power by Brussels at the expense of Member States such as Ireland. They claim that the EU is taking control of more and more policy areas. In fact the opposite is the case. For the first time the Treaty sets out exactly what the EU has responsibility for and limits the EU to those areas. Where the EU has no responsibility, it cannot interfere. Thus for the first time ever, this Treaty sets out very clearly the areas where Member States such as Ireland are to share power with the EU and in all other areas the EU cannot interfere. This is a progressive step. ”
(From the Fine Gael summary of the Treaty)
As for what FF ministers say… normally I would recommend ignoring them… in fact continue ignoring
April 17th, 2008 at 10:30 am
it makes it a difficult decision for the layman when the interpretations seem to differ so wildly…
April 17th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Dave, why are you so keen to give everything away so easily? What is wrong with you? Has History not told you to be wary of large political blocs? Any reasonable, freedom-loving individual should feel an innate revulsion to the proposals contained in the Lisbon Treaty. The Irish people have rejected this proposed super state structure once already only to have the political elite treat their desicion with contempt and dish it up once again to us this time with a new name, some graphics, banners and a big PR drive. Don’t fall for it people-at least we in Ireland get the chance to vote on it, so vote No!
You say in your opening that this treaty will improve prosperity across Europe. I’m writing this from Germany where wages are decreasing, prices increasing and the man in the street is being screwed left, right and centre by the career politician types-the same type of people who want us to sell out to a European superstate under the aegis of the Lisbon Treaty. It´s the same story in France, Italy and Spain-why do you think Cork is full of young Europeans? No, this lie about creating wealth does not wash with me.
We have it good in Ireland, believe me. This may be an accident, a fluke even, but for God’s sake don’t throw what we have left away. We have already surrendered our currency and fiscal autonomy. Let’s not sell our soul as well. I am no Europhobe, the opposite in fact. I speak French and German fluently having lived and worked in both countries; I have travelled widely in Europe; have a son in Germany and am in love with a girl from Croatia and it is precisley because of the insights my life experiences have given me with regard to Europe that I urge people to vote no to this treaty.
Where’s it all leading to Dave? Why not leave things the way they are-everything seems fine the way it is to me. Fine Gale is in essence a conservative party-why not conserve things then the way they are? We owe Europe nothing, don’t forget that. They have our fishing rights, bought cheaply for a few roads and bridges. We are a proud and ancient island race; as Europe lay in darkness it was here where learning was kept alive. Like then let us again be a beacon of hope and reason and vote No to this proposed behemoth.
Anyway, that’s about all I have to say on the matter Dave. Doubtless you have better qoutes and more facts on the subject than I, and I respect that, but I’m voting with my feelings and my heart on this one. And they tell me Padrig Pearse didn’t die for this kind of monster. In my experience the larger an organisation the greater the disconnect from the very people it claims to represent.
I hope you’re well Dave, haven’t heard from you in a while-how was Poland? They know all about monolithic power blocs there as you know yourself.
Don’t fall for this pan European brotherhood of man malarkey. One Irish company has done more for European integration than all the grey men and women in Brussles on their big fat gravy train and that’s Ryanair. Let the peoples of Europe form personal relations with their neighbours and not have this cage against their freedoms built around them-vote No!
April 17th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
And Dave, perhaps this vote doesn’t affect trade directly, but these problems are stemming from EU regulations already in practice. Down with Mandelson the sneaky dog, down with the EU superstate, Down with Lisbon!
Martin, Your claims of Ireland being a beacon are wrong. Lithuania was much further civilised than Ireland in the middle ages as it is now.
April 18th, 2008 at 1:07 am
Ok Vitmar, you’ve lost the plot bud… come back with an argument about the treaty and I’ll address it again but I won’t entertain mindless comments and/or petty jibes at this Country or it’s hero’s flawed and all as they might be.
Martin,
You’re comment deserves a much better reply than I could possibly supply right now so I promise it my full attention tomorrow… needless to say I disagree… but thanks for asking, I’m well and hope you are also!
April 18th, 2008 at 11:24 am
I don’t think you’re really from Lithuania Vitmar-if that is your real name, but if you are then hear this, anything east of Folkstone is barbarian country, always has been and always will.
April 29th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
I’ve tried my best to find out as much info as I can about the treaty, I’ve even read some of the treaty online, but with out actually reading it it is impossible to paint a clear picture of it. I intend to vote no on this and I don’t know a single person who is going with a yes. From what I can tell it takes away our right to implement our own tax laws, trade laws, and basically any law you can think of. If we vote yes it will be the last time we ever have a vote in Europe, that’s not good! It doesn’t benefit us as a country in any way, it only benefits the EU as a whole. That’s not good enough for me. It makes our constitution basically null and void and we’ll will be dictated to by the powers that be in the EU. What’s wrong with being a part of something but having different views than it. If we vote no it doesn’t change anything, doesn’t affect our being part of the EU! I would say vote no and keep having our democratic say in EU!
April 29th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
I’m not sure about “makes our constitution basically null and void” but I do agree that nobody seems to know what exactly it’s all about. That’s why I’m leaning towards a no at the moment too.
The idea that people are saying we owe Europe something or that it would affect us being part of the EU by voting no is ridiculous. If the EU was just about small countries like Ireland being in there to make up the numbers and not being allowed to vote no in referendums then I wouldn’t want to be part of it anyway.
April 29th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
I read the pamphlet that came through the door, but to be honest, in order to understand it I would need a much better understanding of how the EU works in the first place.
So should I just put my faith in the government and vote yes?
Given that there are plenty people more politically minded than me out there, and the latest poll says only 5% of voters understand the Lisbon Treaty, I think it is obvious that trusting the government on this one would be a mistake.
The Referendum Commission don’t believe this is a difficult thing to read/understand… if that’s the case why do only 5% get it? Is there, as some parties seem to be claiming, a policy to deliberately not educate?
items like this also make me uncomfortable:
“The right to nominate a Commissioner will rotate among the Member States on an equal basis. This means that each Member State will nominate a member of the Commission for two out of every three Commissions (that is, 10 of every 15 year cycle). The precise details of how this will operate in practice have yet to be decided.”
(thanks wimaxxed!)
April 29th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Wow! Why are the precise details not agreed before they take this to the voters?!
May 6th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Since joining the EU we have been given more than 60 billion of European taxpayers money. I want Ireland to be a stern member of the EU and I want the Irish people to be greatfull and have pride in being in the EU. We have to VOTE YES to the Lisbon Treaty, otherwise Ireland will sink into the abyss and be forgotten by Europe forever.
May 6th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Desmond, that is simply not true - we ARE Europe. That’s the whole point of Europe. We ARE part of Europe and I’m tired of people telling me ‘oh the people in the EU won’t be happy if we vote no…’ I AM the bloody people in the EU.
Tell me exactly how and why we will sink into an abyss and be forgotten? Show me where it is written that by voting no a country will suffer? How is that democratic?
May 6th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Lets not forget that Ireland’s strong economy helped keep the Euro strong when other currencies were sinking.
It hasn’t all been one way traffic and as Europeans we have a duty to ensure this Treaty is the right one. All a no vote would mean is that the politicians would have to go talk about it again.
May 8th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
I’m writing you from Germany and we all hope you have success by stopping the EU Treaty! And I hope you can forgive my miserable English, too.
We don’t have a right on a referendum and though our best wishes are with you and your campaigns. In all over Europe the people standing close to another for stopping this unholy thing called EU Treaty. We all know about the consequences and now it is time to build bridges between the people all over Europe.
This is the Europe of the European People and not the Europe of the European Industry and Warlords.
Here in Germany, Austira, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway and some other countries people go out on the streets for standing against our Governments.
Take a look here: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=5sIgyX0jeuI&feature=related
Although there is a legal accusation against members of the German government, including chancellor Angela Merkel and president Köhler and others, because of high treason.
That is because the government, incl. chancellor Merkel and all of her ministers, are handing over the national souvereignity of Germany to an undemocratic organisation calling itself the European Union.
This governmental action is forbidden by the German Grundgesetz in several articles.
High Treason in our law is defined as “ using violence to remove the democratic organisation of the state.” The Merkel Administration uses its power over the state media - and their associated private media corporations, such as Bertelsmann corporation , Springer Verlag and others - to silence the democratic opposition against the EU Treaty of Lisboa and to deconstruct the democratic German state and replacing it by a nondemocratic organisation serving economic interests of a few corporations only – but not the peoples interests and their legal democratic rights.
The abuse of media power and the silencing of the legal opposition in the media of the state is, in the opinion of the informers of the state prosecutor, violence.
In fact no country of the forthcoming EU totalitarism will have any significant or fundamental rights to reign itself through the will of the People. But the will of the people is the fundamental of every democracy. It is ignored by the EU and, as far as Germany is concerned, the German government, too. You can follow the links at the end of this text to read about the concerned laws and the charge because of high treason in Geman.
Best wishes
Stephan Schmitt
May 13th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Why is there no links being posted to the actual treaty?
That way people can read it themselves.
http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/Lisbon_Treaty_English.pdf
Check it out, its 294 pages and the original treaties which get modified by it are available at http://europa.eu/abc/treaties/index_en.htm
All the “vote yes because we think it’s great” statements by people who have not read the treaty does not engender confidence in these tricksters who run our country and want to run the world.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
And another thing if this Lisbon treaty makes the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union legally binding well then the combination of the following two articles is a bit worrying…
Article 3
Right to the integrity of the person
2. In the fields of medicine and biology, the following must be respected in particular:
* the prohibition of the reproductive cloning of human beings.
Article 13
Freedom of the arts and sciences
The arts and scientific research shall be free of constraint
Note that any other form of cloning is not prohibited and science shall be free from constraint. Welcome back Dr. Mengeler (spelling?)
May 13th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Why are all the yes pushers just saying we will be left behind if we don’t vote yes? That is just peer pressure it is very worrying that the vast majority of pro-yes voters have not actually read the treaty and the underlying treaties they amend.
It’s available online and is only 294 pages.
Also the sneaky yes vote leaflet put in the door by the Govt. which lies by saying that ammendments don’t replace anything! These things do not engender confidence in a yes vote.
May 13th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
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