The next Batman villain…
July 30th, 2008 by Frank
After seeing The Dark Knight myself and Eoin had a long chat about where a third film might go. We discussed the universe Christopher Nolan had created and what Batman villains remained that could work in his reality.
Empire Online listened into our conversation, then went back in time and published it on their website - the result being a great article on what Batman baddies could work for the third installment and who might play them…
It’s a tricky question, many of the Batman villains aren’t quite big enough to hold a Summer blockbuster - but then again, isn’t that what we would have said of Ra’s Al Ghul?
The problem is that with Heath Ledger’s Joker, and Aaron Eckhart’s Two Face fresh in our minds it’s hard to see how they could be competed with, but enough time will have passed in the meantime to allow us to settle into a potentially lower key but just as compelling film which focussed even more on the drama than the high octane action (see my quibbles with The Dark Knight movie).
So what would my suggestion be?
Well, I love Empire’s idea of Toby Jones as the Penguin - as myself and Eoin discussed he could be far less cartoonish and much more mob underworld figure. This would also potentially allow for the detective aspects of Batman’s character to emerge more fully.
Another idea, which could run in tandem with the Penguin would be to bring on the women. In a way it’s a shame that Selina Kyle (Catwoman), Pamela Isley (Poison Ivy) and Talia Al Ghul (Ra’s daughter) haven’t in some way been established in the franchise, because it would be the perfect change of direction, so as not to be competing with the themes of the Dark Knight. 
The tension that could be created both romantically and adversarially(?!) could be very interesting, with Bruce Wayne’s interest in Selina Kyle, Poison Ivy’s ability to bend Bruce Wayne/Batman to her will and Talia’s romantic interest in Bruce Wayne fighting with her interest in revenge for her father.
I’m not usually a fan of throwing too many villains into the mix in one film, but still… how about this… Penguin steps in to fill the void created by the departure of the Joker and begins to whip the mob back into shape. He teams up with Poison Ivy as potentially the only one who can bend Batman to their will - something the public are all too eager to believe as Batman is now their scapegoat. 
Meanwhile Catwoman is on the lookout for some easy cash to be made in the intervening chaos, and ends up caught between Batman and the Mob as she plays both sides…
If you really wanted to you could throw Talia in for good measure, as the uneasy relationship develops between Batman and Catwoman, Talia is throwing herself at Bruce Wayne who is tempted in his recent grief to seek comfort in her arms, only to discover that while she has developed feelings for him her real aim is to destroy him.
That’s a lot of character establishment for one movie though, and Nolan - if he does a third installment - will probably surprise us with somehting completely out of left field. What about no super villain, just Batman vs the mob in true detective style?
What do you think? The person who comments the closest to what gets made will get a Popcorn and a Coke on me!
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August 6th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
I think a Batman villain that would work great would be Bane–now I’m not talking about that mindless version in the old batman films–I’m talking about the Bane that was in the comic books. He was very intelligent and had immense strength–and at one point he actually ‘broke’ the Batman–leaving Batman barely able to move, let alone breath–that’s something we’ve yet to see in these new Batman movies–a villain that is not only a challenge for Batman–but also manages to defeat Batman. If Nolan wanted to surprise everyone with something unexpected–Bane could be it. And as a second villain, perhaps Rachel didn’t really die in the explosion in ‘dark knight’ —and is now Catwoman–her love, Harvey Dent is now dead–and she thinks it’s Batman’s doing–so she could be out for revenge and working for Bane–but at the same time, she still has love for Bruce–so she could be a character torn between being killing Batman or helping him against Bane.
Now that would make for an interesting movie.
August 7th, 2008 at 2:53 am
hey Iwazary, that’s an interesting proposal… but I’d be really annoyed if anyone who seemed to be dead in The Dark Knight turned out not to be.
I know it’s a comic convention, but Nolan seems to have eschewed such conventions for the main and I would be disappointed if I felt he was pulling a fast one on us.
I realise that there is one plot device already used in The Dark Knight which seems to contradict my position - I don’t want to say what coz there are still people who haven’t seen it reading - but let’s just say that while I thought it was unecessary, it was at least set up and revealed in a traditional film sense.
As for Bane, would you believe I don’t thin I ever read a Batman Bane tale. While I was a big Batman fan, it has to be said that I cherry picked my reading!
I’ll owe you that popcorn and coke if you’re right!
August 7th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
I would like to see The Ventriloquist and Scarface in a batman film… I think they could make an interesting creation story as to why Wesker harnesses his bad side in a puppet…
August 10th, 2008 at 1:16 am
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August 11th, 2008 at 1:46 am
Have you seen Batman Gotham Knight? It’s ace. Deadshot and Killer Croc both make appearances in it. Deadshot might work in the context of Nolan’s Gotham certainly. I don’t know how well it would work but I’d love to see Philip Seymour-Hoffman play The Penguin.
August 14th, 2008 at 8:50 am
i’m personaly hoping the Joker will play a part in the next film, just because the ending dosen’t reveal much and the joker is my favoret villan. but has anyone thought of Mr.Freeze or the Riddler? i know the riddler is kind of a rip off of the Joker but he still might have a part.
August 14th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
I think the Penguin makes the most sense. A Gangland figure type of Penguin as opposed to a half Penguin half man. I see him as dressing in a suit all the time and having a beak like nose, therefore earning himself the nickname, The Penguin. He makes sense to me as there’s a power vacum in the higher arcy of the Gotham underworld at the end of the Dark Knight. I’d love to see a vicious version of The Penguin come in and organise it all.
Philip Seymour-Hoffman would be a good choice, but I think he’s too obvious for the Nolan series. My gut feeling is Adrian Brody.
I picked up on a line in The Dark Knight where Fox tells Batman his suit would be strong enough to stand up to cats. Is this a Catwoman hint? I think so. I do wonder if they’d do Penguin and Catwoman again though after Batman Returns?
Casting Catwoman is very difficult. Angelina Jolie is the obvious choice, but again too predictable. Frank suggested Charlize Theron to me some time back and I think that’s a great choice. She might be too tall for Bale though. I’ll have to come back to ye on the casting of Catwoman.
At the moment I can’t see beyond Penguin and Catwoman, but have reservations because of Batman Returns.
August 14th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
After watching Batman Begins last night I wondered was there any possibility of Ra’s Al Ghul returning for the third installment which would bring us nicely around full circle to tie up a trilogy - however, I really couldn’t reconcile Ra’s resurrection pits with Nolan’s Batworld.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
In a word No!
August 19th, 2008 at 8:01 am
[...] this Batman talk has got me thinking about the other good superhero movies that have been made. I thought I’d [...]
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:23 pm
My suggestion for villains would be Bane and Catwoman. We’ve got the whole world against Batman at the end of The Dark Knight, so dealing with themes of Redemption is the likely way to go with the next movie. With that in mind, you’ve got the character of Catwoman walking the line between good and evil, and Bane, who is essentially an evil version of Batman (grew up in darkness and solitude, trained his body and mind to perfection, etc). Now, I don’t think they should go so far as to include the venom steroid; Bane can instead just be the highly intelligent and strong dude that he is in the comics (even without the venom, he’s still a huge mountain of muscle and physically stronger than Batman). Arriving in Gotham, Bane can start to assume control of the mobs that were left in shambles by the Joker and Batman over the course of the first two movies by assassinating the former mod leaders whom Harvey Dent had put in prison during The Dark Knight. Breaking the inmates out of Arkham to wear Batman down (as Bane did in the comics) was already done in the first movie, so in order to avoid being repetitive, I’d have Bane just force all of his new mob henchmen to just go nuts with crime, forcing Batman (who is already near the breaking point, thanks to being on the run from the law) to work overtime to stop the new riots and crime sprees that Bane has instigated. Finally, Bane and Batman have their confrontation at Wayne Manor (with Bane having already deduced that Bruce is Batman), and Bane kicks his ass. I wouldn’t go so far as to have Bane break Wayne’s back, but just leave Bruce bloody and beaten on the floor of the batcave, telling him not to even bother trying to fight anymore, since the city hates him and will only cheer when they discover that Batman has been defeated.
Of course, all through the course of these events, Batman and Catwoman have been playing their cat-and-mouse game, with Bruce having already figured out that she’s really the socialite Selina Kyle. In their civilian lives, Bruce is actually dating Selina just so that he can get close to her and learn more about the best cat burglar in Gotham. However, during his investigation, Bruce starts falling for Selina.
So when Bruce is beaten by Bane, Selina Kyle sees his broken body and puts two and two together to deduce that he’s really Batman, and inspires him to get back in the game and defeat Bane. Since Bane has already had the former mob leaders killed, it goes without saying that those guys won’t be released from prison if it’s revealed that Harvey Dent went insane, then there’s no reason for Batman to keep taking the blame for Two-Face’s crimes. So by the end of the movie, it is made public that Batman is innocent of the murders committed in the last movie, Bane is defeated with the help of Catwoman, and Selina disappears at the last second to avoid being captured by Batman for her burglaries.
August 22nd, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Nice work Scot. I’d pay to watch that movie. What about casting?
I think they need some Venom like element to Bane as the only reason he’s always been stronger than Batman is that he takes that enhancement. As in nobody is stronger than Batman! The fact Batman can defeat someone who is even artificially strong would make him the fully established hero of Gotham!
The Catwoman stuff needs a little more development I feel. She’s too good to be a supporting character. If they went with that story then there wouldn’t be a great need for Catwoman. Keep her for number 4. Might be a good idea to have another woman in between Rachel and Catwoman anyway.
August 23rd, 2008 at 2:13 am
Thanks. I agree that Catwoman would need more development than I described, and definitely needs a subplot of her own. I’m not sure what it that plot would contain, but it would have to be significant enough to warrant Bruce Wayne to start dating her to get close.
As for Bane, I don’t see the reason why he’d need venom in the movie. Batman’s never been the strongest man in Gotham; he combines above average strength with masterful skill to be one of the best fighters in DC Comics, but there’s no way anyone can convince me that there’s nobody stronger than Bruce. Batman can’t afford to have the huge muscles of a heavyweight champion, which would slow him down too much and make dodging gunfire A LOT harder than it already is. On the flipside, Bane likely isn’t nearly as fast and maneuverable as Batman is, but Bane has always had more than enough sheer muscle mass to make him, without question, physically stronger than Batman. Without venom, Bane has been shown to be equal in strength to Killer Croc in the comics, who himself is stronger than Batman.
It’s just that in Christopher Nolan’s realistic take on the Batman universe, the super steroid of venom would really be pushing the limits on realism. I mean, if Nolan can pull the venom element off in a realistic way, then more power to him. The venom itself could be the key to Bane’s defeat, like it was in the comics, when Jean Paul Valley cut off Bane’s supply and put the villain into a sudden severe case of withdrawal. Personally, I would prefer Bane without the drug, but I wouldn’t complain if he did have it.
August 24th, 2008 at 2:35 am
personally i think BANE should be the next villian, he wasnt done right at all in batman and robin. . I mean cmon he broke the batmans back he deserves to be in the next movie. I can see him as a hitman hired to kill the bat. With the epic scene of him breaking the bat in two.He is a realistic character and christerpher nolan can bring the character back to life. bane definately ranks up there with two face and personally is one of my favorite villians besides the joker. I can also see the scarecrow coming back since he wasnt killed off but he couldnt carry the villian role by himself. There are rumors that there are left over clips of the joker that may be used for the next film
August 24th, 2008 at 7:00 am
if bane didn’t have venom, what would be the use of his helmet/mask thing?
August 24th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
What purpose do you think his mask serves when he *is* using venom?? It’s just a mask. The tubes that are drilled into Bane’s skull, and the pump that’s strapped to his wrist, are the only things on him that are associated with using the drug. The mask is only for intimidating people, like the bank robber said about the Joker’s “war paint” at the beginning of The Dark Knight.
August 24th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
I would expect that Nolan could come up with a more realistic version of Venom. A new stronger version of the steroids that exist today perhaps?
Is Bane, Bane without Venom though?
August 25th, 2008 at 12:46 am
Sure he’s still Bane. Keep in mind that he did kick the addiction to venom over a decade ago in the comics, after his defeat at the hands of Jean Paul Valley taught him that venom was more of a weakness than a benefit. With a mind unclouded by chemicals and poison, Bane came back more focused and dangerous than ever. And he’s still the same character: huge intimidating dude, master strategist and martial artist, and with a taste for fine wine and snapping spines.
Even Bane’s master scheme in the “Knightfall” storyline had *nothing* to do with his usage of the drug. No venom was needed to release the Arkham inmates, to make Batman run his gauntlet for weeks, to deduce Batman’s true identity, to invade Wayne Manor and cripple Bruce Wayne (although he did use venom for that last scene in Wayne Manor, simply to show off how easily he could outclass Batman. But if you read the book, it’s quite obvious that the drug wasn’t needed at all to beat Wayne). Bane’s intellect & charisma (not his formerly enhanced strength) is the key to his character. Ra’s Al Ghul himself said that Bane’s mind was equal to the greatest he had ever known. In fact, when you think about it, the *only* purpose that venom served in the story, once the Knightfall plot began, was to be the key to Bane’s defeat. If it weren’t for the drug, Bane still would have beaten Bruce Wayne, and he probably would have *killed* Jean Paul Valley, instead of being defeated by him after he forced Bane into severe withdrawal from the drug.
August 25th, 2008 at 1:26 am
Ok, so any casting ideas Scot?
August 25th, 2008 at 4:32 am
I can’t think of any known actors, but there has to be someone without a really thick South American accent, but still refined and recognizable as being South American in origin (like Henry Silva’s voice performance as Bane in the episodes of the revamped Batman Animated series, after the producers told him to tone it down somewhat and be more subtle. The episode “Over the Edge” has Silva’s best performance in the role, in my opinion). If they can find a good actor who can pull off that kind of voice, and pump up to awe-inspiring levels of muscle, then he’ll get my support. At the moment, I can only really see the role going to some unknown actor. The perfect actor’s out there somewhere.
August 25th, 2008 at 4:42 am
Mathew Mcconnaghhey or however you spell it, he’s southern lol.
September 18th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Thoughts on the villains. Joker could still be done, but more of a person from the shadows of Arkham. Similar to Hannibal Lecter. Just use a voice actor and have the Joker be in the shadows. His influence still being felt on the streets of Gotham. Grafitti images of him, “Joker Rules without Rules” kind of stuff.
As for other villains, have to be the more ‘realistic’ ones:
Penguin - eh..never was a fan, but I guess a long-nosed mobster could work. Hoskins, Gandofini.
Riddler - Riddler has to be done a little different than other incarnations. No Gorshin or Jim Carey interpretation. More like a Gotham “cyberpunk” hacker, that has a fetish for asian girls. Dolls girls up like anime characters and uses them as hench”girls”. Could get creepy, but remember he’s one of the smartest villains. Who would play him? Not Johnny Depp..he’s going to be Mad Hatter in Burton’s Alice in Wonderland anyway. How about Crispin Glover, or some other lanky creepy guy.
Catwoman - If this is going to happen, don’t have Jolie do it. I think it should be someone who would have chemistry with Bale. Kate Beckinsale, Selma Blair.
Poison Ivy - There would be CG involved, and it’s just too “GREEN”. Environmentalism is good, but it shouldn’t dominate a Batman film.
Bane - Good storyline from Knightfall, but who to play him. Still would be limited CG?
Mad Hatter - Too goofy. The whole movie would have to be Alice in Wonderland themed. Again too goofy.
Hush - Possible good story. Not a lot of people know the villain though.
Hugo Strange - Possible good story, Brian Cox anyone?
No Mr. Freeze, no Clayface, no Man-Bat, no Killer Croc, and no ROBIN.
I vote for Riddler, Bane and Catwoman. Riddler and Bane are hunting Batman. Riddler is used by the mobs to draw him out, and Bane is there to break him. Meanwhile Selina Kyle is a love interest and a challenge for Batman.
September 20th, 2008 at 1:39 am
To have Bane in a Batman movie, they’d have to find some one who is a good actor but also has a huge or at least more than average muscle mass—but since Bane wears a mask, they could have a good actor do Banes voice acting—and a seperate man to be the actual ‘body’ of Bane–that way they it would be easier to have great acting along with the perfect look.
As for Riddler—in this day and age it would make sense for him to be a kind of computer genius hacker–it’s very possible that he’d be able to control an entire city this way and pose a serious threat while leaving riddles along the way as a sort of uncontrolable impulse he has to do so.
I think they should get a fresh unknown actor for Riddler–or at least a young actor–and the look should be thin and lanky like Steve said–so the actor will either have to already look like that or be willing to drop some weight and muscle—
Now Joker didn’t die in the Dark Night–but we unfortuanatly don’t have Heath with us anymore–but we can have Jokers face obscured in the shadows like Steve suggested—I’m sure there would be a way to have the Joker in the plot.
October 15th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
With a clever screenplay from the Nolan Brothers the Black Mask is a plausible addition to the series. With realistic Villains needed I think the addition of Bane and Catwoman would detract from the trilogy as a whole. The Black Mask would work perfectly in the sense that he is on a personal vendetta against Bruce Wayne. The Black Mask, a cult leader with ties to the Gotham underworld captures Bruce Wayne via the capture and torture of Lucius Fox (Black Mask lures Mr. Wayne with video footage of his good friend). With Batman out of the way the city is free for the Riddler to wreak havoc. It would take commissioner Gordon to save Mr. Wayne, then batman to save the city. In terms of actors i would pick Johnny Depp for Riddler, Joaquin Phoenix or Harvier Bardhan as The Black Mask.
October 20th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Y’know, the more I think about Bane, I think the limited CG would detract from the “realistic” Nolan vision. I still want Kate Beckinsale to be Catwoman. Oh well.
As for Black Mask, I don’t know. Two-Face has a rather “skullish” look to him, so I think Black Mask would be repetitive.
I forgot to mention Scar-Face and the Ventriloquist. It would be interesting, and definitely psychotic, but the repetitive “face” moniker.
Getting back to Catwoman, everyone wants Angelina Jolie to be Selina Kyle. I think she would be a better Talia.
I kinda like that idea of Toby Jones being Penguin. Still not a fan of the character though. How about Adian Brody as the Riddler.
If we really want to see villains from the comic books in Nolan’s Gotham. It will have to be Riddler, Catwoman, Penguin (mobster, not umbrella flying, fish-eating freak ), Black Mask, Hush, Scarface, or Hugo Strange.
October 21st, 2008 at 2:35 am
Last post, then I gotta get away from this subject. Ultimately, it will be up to the Nolans and Goyer. It will probably be a villain we won’t expect, with an actor or actress we never mentioned. No one expected Ledger was going to be The Joker. So we’ll see. This is who I would look at if the casting decision was up to me. I believe in Nolan’s “reality-based” vision and so far it’s worked.
Nolan’s Gotham City
So far…
R’as al Ghul - Liam Neesan
Scarecrow - Cillian Murphy
Victor Zsasz - Tim Booth
The Joker - the late Heath Ledger. Joker could be a figure in the shadows, and/or a voice actor, in later installments.
Harvey “Two-Face” Dent - Aaron Eckhart
Upcoming films?
Some of these actors were part of past Nolan projects anyway, so that would up the chances for some of these names.
The Riddler - Adrian Brody, Giovanni Ribisi, or Jared Leto
The Penguin - Toby Jones
Catwoman - Kate Beckinsale
Black Mask - Javier Bardem
Hush - Guy Pearce
Deadshot - Hugh Jackman
Hugo Strange - Brian Cox
The Ventriloquist and Scarface - Joe Pantoliano or Robin Williams
Talia al Ghul - Megan Fox, Camilla Belle
Lady Shiva - Zhang Ziyi, Gong Li, Lucy Lui
David Cain - Ray Stevenson
October 21st, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Well since johnny depp is confirmed then the joker is very plausible. But I dont think catwoman will work in the Nolan universe unless it is Bruce Wayne’s love interest gone wrong or an abid fan or something but that would not bea very good move on the nolan brother’s depiction of the batman franchise, it would come across as another run of the mill blockbuster and wont have the same effect as the Dark Knight did.
We need to feel an emotional bond with Bruce Wayne for this last one as the series has delved into the batman side of it (remember batman is nothing without Bruce Wayne and vice versa). Yes the black mask is a skull-like character, but he is completely different to the Nolan depiction of Harvey Dent. The only tie would be in the fact that his mask is in the shape of the skull but the origins of the black mask is an interesting plot to work on.
Forget a female villain anyways, there are only a handful of female characters in this series and they all see to die.
I was thinking the ventriloquist would be good in the way he can manipulate people to do his biddings
October 25th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Reuben, Johnny Depp hasn’t been confirmed for anything. He was simply rumored to be playing the Riddler by a bad tabloid, and then the “news” just exploded from there and everyone assumed it to be true without actually hearing any official word from the people who are going to be making the movie.
As for Catwoman, why don’t you think that she could work in the Nolan universe? She’s just as realistic as Batman is, and her story could be almost as interesting if it were accurately translated from comic to screen; a poor prostitute from Gotham’s slums, inspired by the likes of Batman to become a costumed thief, and using her growing wealth to move up the social ladder to the level where she can hang out with the likes of Bruce Wayne and other members of Gotham’s high society without question, and gladly being the eyecandy at all the rich parties (and discovers through the course of the movie that she is Carmine Falcone’s daughter). Her moral ambiguity plays really well off of Batman, and she is one of the few characters that everyone expects to be revived in the new movie franchise, much like the Joker was one of the characters that HAD to be in the new movie universe.
As far as getting the characters that are major players in the Batman universe out of the way, they’ve already done Two-Face, Joker, and Ra’s Al Ghul; so Bane and Catwoman are really the only characters left that play huge roles in Batman and Wayne’s life that have yet to be brought to life in a new movie. Yes, smaller characters like Scarecrow and Zsasz were fun to see on screen, much like the Riddler, the Penguin, and many other characters could possibly be fun to see in future films. However, Bane and Selina go beyond the smaller characters like Riddler and Penguin, because they have personal connections to both Bruce Wayne and Batman that can allow the plot to get more personal to the hero.
As for the limited CGI that Steve suggested would be needed to bring Bane to life on screen, I don’t agree. It’s only the artists whose styles were already unrealistic and highly stylized who drew Bane as being inhumanly huge in the days when he used the venom steroid. More realistic artists, like Graham Nolan, illustrated Bane as just a really big and muscular guy, but still perfectly realistic in size:
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4977/bane22go5.jpg
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/713/bane21ee7.jpg
And even some artists, like Norm Breyfogle, whose art style *wasn’t* very realistic had enough sense to know that Bane wasn’t the size of the Hulk:
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1755/bane2je4.jpg
Black Mask is another character who I could see coming to life in Christopher Nolan’s world. I wouldn’t complain if I saw him as the main villain in the next movie. However, my preference would still be for Bane and Catwoman as the major villain/anti-hero for the film.